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Batman

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  #2863691 8-Feb-2022 17:47
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Paul1977:

 

This might overlap with the "politisation" thread, but it's really a medical question first and foremost...

 

Is there any research yet that demonstrates the following in regards to vaccination and Omicron:

 

  • If vaccinated are you less likely to become infected, or just less likely to have major systems?
  • If vaccinated and become infected are you less likely to spread it to others?

Where this crosses over into "politisation" is that the answers determine whether vaccine mandates do actually slow the spread. If both answers are "yes", then that's some justification for the mandates, but if the answers are "no" then the mandates shouldn't be required.

 

I'm doubled vaxxed and boosted, and I'm confident that offers me reasonable personal protection. But with Omicron does my vaccination status benefit the wider community (other than I'm less likely to take up a hospital bed)?

 

 

as i've mentioned before the issue is our hospital system is running at *100% capacity, exactly the same today and the day before our first level 4 lockdown, if not worse today. so the idea i think is vaccination reduces hospitalization, and the govt is doing all it can to slowly and gently spread the omicron around so as not to collapse the hospitals further.

 

 

 

*the reason i say 100% is all hospitals routinely cancel planned treatments so the capacity to provide services has to be at least running at 100% capacity




rhy7s
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  #2863719 8-Feb-2022 19:46
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Paul1977:

 

Senecio:

 

I'm not qualified to answer your other questions but this one is pretty straight forward I would have thought. Your vaccination status definitely benefits the wider community as you are less likely to become a burden on our health care system.

 

cshwone:

 

And the other aspect is that because essential service mandated workers are fully boostered they are less likely to become severely ill therefore less strain running those essential services

 

Benoire:

 

Now from a human health perspective, reducing hte load on the health service is really the most critical thing in my view.

 

CYaBro:

 

Also the unvaccinated are more likely to suffer from long covid and deal with ongoing chronic health effects for months or years.

 

I think it's actually problematic having mandates based on any of the above because the only direct consequence is to the unvaccinated person. It can't be used as a legitimate justification of a policy restricting a persons ability to go places, or work certain jobs, if they are no more likely to pass Covid to others than a vaccinated person is. The extra strain on the health system potentially caused by the unvaccinated is a concern, but that's almost a separate issue - the mandates are based on the premise that an unvaccinated person is more likely to become infected, and then more likely to infect others.

 

...

 

 

 

 

I'm not following you on these being examples of direct consequences? Sure, individuals are the vectors but all the examples you've listed come with negative externalities to society as a whole, even if there isn't onwards transmission from a particular case. I also don't know where you got the premise you've stated as being what the mandate is based on, do you have a link?


chatterbox
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  #2863721 8-Feb-2022 19:53
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Ge0rge:
Batman:

hunger strike to leave MIQ https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/127703803/we-won-nilbymouth-striker-confirmed-he-will-be-let-out-to-see-dying-dad


 



What a crock. There are no exemptions - period - until a day 3 negative test has been produced. His hunger strike has nothing to do with it.


He’s well past day 3. Agree it’s nothing to do with hunger strike. Glad he’s out and spending precious time with his dad who’s dying. We should have been doing this from day dot. It’s seriously not rocket science to be compassionate or come up with a plan to provide protection ❤️

It’s one of my great frustrations with govt. talk the talk but they don’t walk the walk when it comes to compassion.



Geektastic
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  #2863725 8-Feb-2022 19:57
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I had a meeting today with a specialist tourism marketing company.

One of the things we discussed was what happens if you're on a tour with clients and one gets Covid? How do you stop a multi week trip full of bookings for hotels, activities and restaurants etc and self isolate for a week?

How would you do it with a coach tour of 40 pax?!





chatterbox
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  #2863727 8-Feb-2022 20:07
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Geektastic: I had a meeting today with a specialist tourism marketing company.

One of the things we discussed was what happens if you're on a tour with clients and one gets Covid? How do you stop a multi week trip full of bookings for hotels, activities and restaurants etc and self isolate for a week?

How would you do it with a coach tour of 40 pax?!


Take a test to stay approach with RAT kits. Just like they do in schools. Presumably those on tour have evaluated their risk rightly or wrongly. Assuming everyone is vaccinated and wearing masks? It should definitely be announced someone has dropped out of the tour as they’ve tested positive so they either need to evaluate their own risk or follow public health guidance… which will of course change over time… completely unrelated to your own risk but more related to capacity to trace etc

Being on a tour isn’t a guarantee you’re going to test positive nor get really sick from covid.


Geektastic
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  #2863728 8-Feb-2022 20:14
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chatterbox:
Geektastic: I had a meeting today with a specialist tourism marketing company.

One of the things we discussed was what happens if you're on a tour with clients and one gets Covid? How do you stop a multi week trip full of bookings for hotels, activities and restaurants etc and self isolate for a week?

How would you do it with a coach tour of 40 pax?!


Take a test to stay approach with RAT kits. Just like they do in schools. Presumably those on tour have evaluated their risk rightly or wrongly. Assuming everyone is vaccinated and wearing masks? It should definitely be announced someone has dropped out of the tour as they’ve tested positive so they either need to evaluate their own risk or follow public health guidance… which will of course change over time… completely unrelated to your own risk but more related to capacity to trace etc

Being on a tour isn’t a guarantee you’re going to test positive nor get really sick from covid.



I'm aware.

However, where is a foreign visitor going to self isolate on short notice? Where are 39 close contacts going to self isolate on short notice in the coach example?

How are all the businesses that get sudden cancellations for rooms, meals, activities etc later in there trip going to cope?

It's far more complex than you suggest. The rules will require significant relaxation if tourism is to resume.





 
 
 

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quickymart
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  #2863731 8-Feb-2022 20:26
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I'm not on Twitter to cast a vote here, but...so much LOL with this young woman's polls!

 

https://twitter.com/cruisey8181

 

I really don't think they went the way she was hoping they would (some of the comments are hilarious too).


richms
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  #2863732 8-Feb-2022 20:29
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quickymart:

 

I'm not on Twitter to cast a vote here, but...so much LOL with this young woman's polls!

 

https://twitter.com/cruisey8181

 

I really don't think they went the way she was hoping they would (some of the comments are hilarious too).

 

 

Twitter question, if I vote then block, does my vote still count?





Richard rich.ms

chatterbox
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  #2863781 9-Feb-2022 07:29
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@Geektastic Hotels/airlines have been offering free cancellations for a long time. It gave people confidence to book. That should be clarified in advance of the tour.

It’s possible to come up with a plan if more details given (but I wouldn’t on a public forum). But having no plan isn’t fair on the travellers either. Unless you tell them up front they’ll have to sort themselves out. I personally would expect some options/suggestions for accommodation and transport to be provided by the tour operator but I’d also have my own back up plans.

If the plans aren’t reasonable I wouldn’t actually run the tour 🤷‍♀️

PolicyGuy
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  #2863785 9-Feb-2022 08:01
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chatterbox:
It’s possible to come up with a plan if more details given (but I wouldn’t on a public forum). But having no plan isn’t fair on the travellers either. Unless you tell them up front they’ll have to sort themselves out. I personally would expect some options/suggestions for accommodation and transport to be provided by the tour operator but I’d also have my own back up plans.

If the plans aren’t reasonable I wouldn’t actually run the tour 🤷‍♀️

 

A tour operator that I have used emailed to say that they had decided they couldn't operate under Red Traffic Light.
They have cancelled all tours and are 'hibernating' until further notice.

 

I guess that means all their tour guides are out of work :(


Geektastic
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  #2863787 9-Feb-2022 08:08
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The very subject is covered in the Herald this morning

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/nzs-17b-international-tourism-sector-big-loser-as-australia-reopens/JHOYBBOTIAT6ACWBZG66DV6O6A/ 

Essentially, it says that tourism, a $17 billion industry, probably can't work and will lose market share to Australia for years of the rules aren't changed.






 
 
 

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Ge0rge
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  #2863790 9-Feb-2022 08:25
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chatterbox: Geektastic Hotels/airlines have been offering free cancellations for a long time. It gave people confidence to book. That should be clarified in advance of the tour.

 

 

 

I think Geektastic could tell you just how well those claims of "free cancellations" are working out here


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  #2863793 9-Feb-2022 08:36
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Geektastic:

 

The very subject is covered in the Herald this morning

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/nzs-17b-international-tourism-sector-big-loser-as-australia-reopens/JHOYBBOTIAT6ACWBZG66DV6O6A/ 

Essentially, it says that tourism, a $17 billion industry, probably can't work and will lose market share to Australia for years of the rules aren't changed.

 

 

Short term yes, as many will go to AUS even though Aussies cannot come here. Later in the year thats not the case, so I dont know how years comes into it


Jas777
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  #2863804 9-Feb-2022 09:37
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tdgeek:

 

Short term yes, as many will go to AUS even though Aussies cannot come here. Later in the year thats not the case, so I dont know how years comes into it

 

 

We are currently looking at 7 months behind Australia but due to our market and capacity of planes etc I would think 12 to 18 months before any semblance of tourist levels back to what the operators would like.

 

The other added factor is that airfares to NZ and from NZ are going to be much higher. 


Jas777
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  #2863805 9-Feb-2022 09:39
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Based on the numbers they are predicting in the new NZ model what is the point of Red Traffic light? as the numbers look like what has happened overseas with less restrictions than here.


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