2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2506183 17-Jun-2020 08:49

Tinkerisk:

Governmental Corona Warning App (by SAP and Telekom)...

edit: It works decentral based on "keys" only stored on the devices for 14 days (no central servers). Bluetooth is used for distance and time (no location) dependent contact tracing (not tracking!).

14 days is a bit short, I think. And I don't think anyone has successfully used BT to estimate distance, so I guess it tells you if you were within 100m of someone.

frankv

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#2506185 17-Jun-2020 08:52

tdgeek:

Dr A let them out in error.

I'd like to know who did let them out. Was it signed off by Dr A? Or was it some other functionary in the MoH?

tdgeek

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#2506188 17-Jun-2020 08:58

frankv:

tdgeek:

Dr A let them out in error.

I'd like to know who did let them out. Was it signed off by Dr A? Or was it some other functionary in the MoH?

I gather from what Ive read and watched is that the person(s) at release time let them go, not following the rules. They normally get tested (it was a rush on this occasion) and one has some symptoms that were taken as something else. Those two factors appear to be the cause. Those checks and balances were not used. I assume he signed it off, and expected the due processes at ground level to occur, they didnt

wellygary

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#2506207 17-Jun-2020 09:14

The problem I have now is that this is now turning into a huge media beat up,

The two people with COVID had already arrived in NZ, so NZ was going to record two COVID cases, no quarantine was going to stop that

They had an approved plan to allow them to come to Wellington, it involved a private car, no contact on the way down and only contact with one person in Wellington......

It was not " A road trip" or "Roaming free" as I've seen screamed across media this morning... which is the same media who for weeks dragged out stories of family members "trapped" in Hotels unable to see dying relatives.... because the cruel government wouldn't let them out...

Tracking a tracing COVID cases that come across that border is going to be the new normal, we had better get used to it....

If they think its a problem now, wait until NZ starts opening bubbles - particularly with Australia,

GV27

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#2506209 17-Jun-2020 09:17

wellygary:

The problem I have now is that this is now turning into a huge media beat up,

It's a 'media beat-up' because we've been told that new arrivals go into a proper quarantine, except we've seen from people going through it that they've been allowed to mix with the general public and with new arrivals into the quarantine, no matter what stage they were at in their two-week stay.

This is not the first instance of MoH saying something was happening a certain way and it coming out that no, it isn't, and things seem to be changing on the fly as these things become public. That's why it's news.

tdgeek

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#2506217 17-Jun-2020 09:24

wellygary:

The problem I have now is that this is now turning into a huge media beat up,

The two people with COVID had already arrived in NZ, so NZ was going to record two COVID cases, no quarantine was going to stop that

They had an approved plan to allow them to come to Wellington, it involved a private car, no contact on the way down and only contact with one person in Wellington......

It was not " A road trip" or "Roaming free" as I've seen screamed across media this morning... which is the same media who for weeks dragged out stories of family members "trapped" in Hotels unable to see dying relatives.... because the cruel government wouldn't let them out...

Tracking a tracing COVID cases that come across that border is going to be the new normal, we had better get used to it....

If they think its a problem now, wait until NZ starts opening bubbles - particularly with Australia,

100%

This particular item should be news, many parts were managed well, but the release wasn't, yet the process for release was there but not followed. So it deserves news coverage but not a beat up. Had there been no rules in place for release, then thats a different story but there were. Some or one member of staff failed to follow the rules. Yes, this is the new normal, we have people arriving daily, and we have been told, there will be cases. Next time, the rules get followed, and someone is a or pre symptomatic, and they pass the test and leave, then infect someone. That can happen, we know that. Its manageable, or we shut the border to everyone for 6 months or more?

Fred99

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#2506262 17-Jun-2020 09:44

tdgeek:

So it deserves news coverage but not a beat up.

I think it does deserve merciless scrutiny by the media.
Same as the "beat ups" about minister Clark's thoughtless, stupid mountain bike trips and the (at the time) opposition leader's thoughtless, stupid return trips from Tauranga to Wellington.

NZers generally complied with extremely draconian lockdown rules, and we've mortgaged the future in the hope/expectation that we'll come out at the end of this when there's an effective treatment or vaccine, without it costing tens of thousands of lives and with our economy intact.

Seeing that potentially sabotaged by an act of stupidity should be on the front page. They should also pursue politicians and high-profile public figures who've continually pushed for easing quarantine for "compassionate" or "economic" reasons. There's no "compassion" when for the sake of somebody's feelings or wallet then you're knowingly risking lives. (I hope) we don't make exceptions for drunk drivers because they're speeding their way to/from a funeral, or an important board meeting.

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MikeB4

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#2506269 17-Jun-2020 09:53

@tdgeek This deserves the "media beat up" as you put it. It is a serious failure and the public deserve to know what happened, why and have confidence that it wont happen again. New Zealanders made a huge sacrifice, many lives have been heavily impacted, businesses lost, tens of thousands of jobs lost, education and health impacted and the mental health issues that will be ongoing for many years as a result will possibly cost lives. The economic and social impacts will be felt for decades. To trivialize this as a media beat up and a mistake(s) made is an insult to all New Zealanders.

All concerned had four months to plan this side of lockdown and they screwed up with in a few days which one would have to be concerned is this incident the only mistake or are there others out there.

Batman

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#2506270 17-Jun-2020 09:54

I might be beaten to a pulp here but I'm going make a comment. It's not targeted at anyone and my condolences to those who have lost people.

But funerals.

Is attending a funeral bringing benefit to the one who has passed, the person attending, or the next of kin of the one who passed?

Depending on the answer, how is attending a funeral in person a compassionate ground? Ie I agree they have remove the compassionate exemption because I think it doesn't qualify as one in the first place. Unlike many other things that are strictly forbidden that could rightly have compassionate grounds but not this I don't think.

tdgeek

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#2506316 17-Jun-2020 10:03

Fred99:

tdgeek:

So it deserves news coverage but not a beat up.

I think it does deserve merciless scrutiny by the media.
Same as the "beat ups" about minister Clark's thoughtless, stupid mountain bike trips and the (at the time) opposition leader's thoughtless, stupid return trips from Tauranga to Wellington.

NZers generally complied with extremely draconian lockdown rules, and we've mortgaged the future in the hope/expectation that we'll come out at the end of this when there's an effective treatment or vaccine, without it costing tens of thousands of lives and with our economy intact.

Seeing that potentially sabotaged by an act of stupidity should be on the front page. They should also pursue politicians and high-profile public figures who've continually pushed for easing quarantine for "compassionate" or "economic" reasons. There's no "compassion" when for the sake of somebody's feelings or wallet then you're knowingly risking lives. (I hope) we don't make exceptions for drunk drivers because they're speeding their way to/from a funeral, or an important board meeting.

No issues with that at all, like I said, its newsworthy. Who do we blame, or sack? maybe Clark as he is Minister of Health. maybe Dr Bloomfield as he is actively running MoH, its on his watch, maybe we check if all processes are in place and who didnt follow them, like the person who released them, who needs to be taken to task or removed from that role. But the media frenzy doesnt seem to want to know about the latter.

kiwifidget

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#2506317 17-Jun-2020 10:10

“It is logical. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.” - Spock and Kirk

I would like to see these 2 women front up and apologise to the country for putting themselves ahead of the 5 million.

Yes, I've slept on it, and I'm still mad.

Delete cookies?! Are you insane?!

tdgeek

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#2506318 17-Jun-2020 10:12

MikeB4:

@tdgeek This deserves the "media beat up" as you put it. It is a serious failure and the public deserve to know what happened, why and have confidence that it wont happen again. New Zealanders made a huge sacrifice, many lives have been heavily impacted, businesses lost, tens of thousands of jobs lost, education and health impacted and the mental health issues that will be ongoing for many years as a result will possibly cost lives. The economic and social impacts will be felt for decades. To trivialize this as a media beat up and a mistake(s) made is an insult to all New Zealanders.

All concerned had four months to plan this side of lockdown and they screwed up with in a few days which one would have to be concerned is this incident the only mistake or are there others out there.

Im not trivialising it. Who is at fault? IMHO its the person who released the sisters. No tests. (I do gather a test is usual, but not a rule) No issue with displaying symptoms, they were let go. So, are there processes in place that a staff member failed to follow? If so and that what I come up with, they need to find out why was this check and balance not adhered to. Or as you suggested earlier, sack Dr Bloomfield, thats an option

If you ran a company, a warehouse employee stole stuff and got caught who do you fire? The CEO? If there are rules in place and a bad apple broke them, that can happen. In this case Id suggest the staff member that let them go was at fault. It comes down to are there rules in place or not? From what I have read, there are. Why did the staff member not test? Why did they ignore symptoms? If MoH cannot give a 100% guaranatee that staff will always be 100% perfect, whuch they cannot, then maybe someone else needs to personally handle each quarantinee

wellygary

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#2506319 17-Jun-2020 10:20

kiwifidget:

I would like to see these 2 women front up and apologise to the country for putting themselves ahead of the 5 million.

Why,!! What did they do wrong.....

There was a system to apply for an early release from quarantine, they applied and did what they were told, they were granted an early release.

They set out a plan to reduce contact, - private car, no contact on travel , only meet and stay with one person in Wellington,

If they did what they the MoH approved, then this is not their fault,

This is a failure of the system and officials, people who follow the rules that they are told to follow are not at fault...

tdgeek

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#2506320 17-Jun-2020 10:20

Batman: I might be beaten to a pulp here but I'm going make a comment. It's not targeted at anyone and my condolences to those who have lost people.

But funerals.

Is attending a funeral bringing benefit to the one who has passed, the person attending, or the next of kin of the one who passed?

Depending on the answer, how is attending a funeral in person a compassionate ground? Ie I agree they have remove the compassionate exemption because I think it doesn't qualify as one in the first place. Unlike many other things that are strictly forbidden that could rightly have compassionate grounds but not this I don't think.

I agree, many others have had to deal with remote funeral attendance. When this was raised in the video, the response was we are at Level One funerals are allowed, there are no restrictions. Had those releasing the sisters tested them, they would have been stopped. Had they assesed based on symptoms that were showing they would have been stopped, and tested which should have happened anyway, that's the process. It "appears" that the time issue caused someone to let them go, which was wrong and not due process, my opinion

Fred99

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#2506321 17-Jun-2020 10:21

Batman:
Is attending a funeral bringing benefit to the one who has passed, the person attending, or the next of kin of the one who passed?

They're rituals all humans celebrate - differently as it's subject to customs, religion, and laws (ie not releasing bodies for immediate burial etc where post-mortem is required - if that doesn't meet religious beliefs and custom, then tough bananas).

Even animals grieve - it's not unique to humans - thus probably coded into us, not something we learn.

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