Auckland Transport: Hop & Snapper. Whats the real issue

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#678293 28-Aug-2012 17:49

ajobbins: The Thales solution is just a transport card. Nothing more. They don't want it to ever be any more than just a card to pay for transport within the Auckland region only.

Snapper on the other hand is a flexible payment solution for transport and other micro payment - and then some. They are much more open to other uses for the card such as loading of other applications to the card chip. Could be used for building access, flybuys (or other loyalty), Airlines (Eg. mPass) etc etc if they choose. The Thales card will never be any of these things because they have specifically designed it that way.

That's fine. I don't want the Snapper card to be used as a de facto surveillance device...as has happened in other places.

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#678299 28-Aug-2012 18:12

knoydart: My understanding was NZTA was running the back system so regions round the country could all use the same back office system. In a country where people travel between at least the major centres very often, having the ability to roam so to speak is a no brainer.

My understanding is that the deal that ARTA signed with Thales specifically designs against this model by segregating clearing houses between regions. The Snapper system on the other hand is centralised and would allow for this (Assuming they can make the commercials work).

Snapper can only be used on NZ bus run services in the city (Our BDFL can´t Snapper from J´ville into town for instance) and train tickets can only be bought from staffed stations with the snapper eftpos terminals which are I think the busier stations during peak hours only.

Been a while since I was in Welly, but it appears you can currently use Snapper on Go Wellington, Valley Flyer, and Runcimans busses as well as several taxis in Wellington, Auckland, Whanganui and Palmerston North, Numerous retailers, the Train Station and they are trialling it on the East by West Ferry.

Where can you use the AT Hop card now? Nowhere - The solution doesn't exist yet.

One issue that I´ll raise and possibly get shot down in flames is the aspect of the boarding data from other transport operators being passed through the snapper system. Now I´ve been told that there are clear lines between NZ Bus & Snapper inside the parent company but the appearance of being able to access that data I think concerns other operators.

This is a commercial issue - nothing a good contract can't fix.

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#678300 28-Aug-2012 18:14

Linuxluver: That's fine. I don't want the Snapper card to be used as a de facto surveillance device...as has happened in other places.

Doesn't mean you HAVE to use it to it's full potential. You can use Snapper for just a transport card if you like, but at least there is flexibility in the solution - unlike the Thales solution.

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#678311 28-Aug-2012 18:54

ajobbins:
knoydart: My understanding was NZTA was running the back system so regions round the country could all use the same back office system. In a country where people travel between at least the major centres very often, having the ability to roam so to speak is a no brainer.

My understanding is that the deal that ARTA signed with Thales specifically designs against this model by segregating clearing houses between regions. The Snapper system on the other hand is centralised and would allow for this (Assuming they can make the commercials work).

Yes, the Snapper system is centralised - in South Korea. It's slightly concerning that all this information is hosted way offshore, by a company not accountable to Auckland, or New Zealand for that matter, owned by a foreign local government. If AT or NZTA set up a system, the operation of that system is accountable to us, and we have ways of making sure it is used only for the purposes for which it was implemented (Official Information Act, our local MP, etc). but while Snapper runs it, we have zero idea what KSCC is doing with that data, what Snapper is doing with that data, because as private companies they don't answer to us - and one of them is even outside our legal jurisdiction. And non-LG Snapper phones? Forget it. KSCC is 30% owned by LG.

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#678333 28-Aug-2012 19:17

Kyanar: Yes, the Snapper system is centralised - in South Korea. It's slightly concerning that all this information is hosted way offshore, by a company not accountable to Auckland, or New Zealand for that matter, owned by a foreign local government. If AT or NZTA set up a system, the operation of that system is accountable to us, and we have ways of making sure it is used only for the purposes for which it was implemented (Official Information Act, our local MP, etc). but while Snapper runs it, we have zero idea what KSCC is doing with that data, what Snapper is doing with that data, because as private companies they don't answer to us - and one of them is even outside our legal jurisdiction. And non-LG Snapper phones? Forget it. KSCC is 30% owned by LG.

With this alone you have lost all the credibility you had left on this topic, at least in my eyes. The first non-LG Snapper phone was the Samsung Galaxy SIII. And Monday Huawei announced the Ascend Y201 which is also a Touch2Pay handset - I have received one today and used with Snapper already.

And Snapper is 100% owned by Infratil. Not by KSCC.

It's becoming clear this is a case of "not made in Auckland" again, as I said before.

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ajobbins

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#678343 28-Aug-2012 19:28

Kyanar: Yes, the Snapper system is centralised - in South Korea. It's slightly concerning that all this information is hosted way offshore, by a company not accountable to Auckland, or New Zealand for that matter, owned by a foreign local government. If AT or NZTA set up a system, the operation of that system is accountable to us, and we have ways of making sure it is used only for the purposes for which it was implemented (Official Information Act, our local MP, etc). but while Snapper runs it, we have zero idea what KSCC is doing with that data, what Snapper is doing with that data, because as private companies they don't answer to us - and one of them is even outside our legal jurisdiction.

Sorry I'm not sure what KSCC is?

Wasn't aware Snapper was hosting data overseas - Can you linked to a source showing what they store there. Even so, the processing I believe is still done on shore, and any data stored overseas is likely to be encrypted. I don't think it would be 'centralised' there - but maybe they have a data warehouse?

Snapper would still be accountable to AT if they won the business anyway, so I am not sure what your point is there. What's to say Thales isn't sending data back to France? Snapper is a vendor just as Thales is. Both were bidding for the work with ARTA/AT.

And non-LG Snapper phones? Forget it. KSCC is 30% owned by LG.

Um...they already do. Samsung Galaxy SIII has been Snapper compatible since launch and the Huawei Ascend Y201 was just added as well.

Edit: You beat me to it freitasm

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#678360 28-Aug-2012 19:52

Kyanar: And non-LG Snapper phones? Forget it. KSCC is 30% owned by LG.

It's already happening. While anything could happen, it's pretty much accepted by most in the industry that the SIM Alliance API will ultimately become the defacto NFC API for Android, and Google would ultimately be stupid not to build it into the OS.

Once the API exists in the OS rather than operators having to have it included in their OEM software it's only a simple matter of the appropiate SIM card and TSM backend and apps can be deployed OTA to devices. This is precisely what Snapper and 2degrees are launching tomorrow.

There is nothing stopping somebody like Mastercard from partnering with 2degrees and launching their Paypass app as an OTA download to the SIM and enabling the end user to use their phone as their Mastercard.

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#678364 28-Aug-2012 20:02

sbiddle:There is nothing stopping somebody like Mastercard from partnering with 2degrees and launching their Paypass app as an OTA download to the SIM and enabling the end user to use their phone as their Mastercard.

I doubt we would see any of this kind of innovation from the AT/Thales solution

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#678380 28-Aug-2012 20:22

freitasm: With this alone you have lost all the credibility you had left on this topic, at least in my eyes. The first non-LG Snapper phone was the Samsung Galaxy SIII. And Monday Huawei announced the Ascend Y201 which is also a Touch2Pay handset - I have received one today and used with Snapper already.

I had heard that the non-LG phones had inferior support (i.e. you couldn't actually use the phone as a Snapper, just use it with the Snapper app to check balance etc) is this not the case? If so, my apologies there,

freitasm:
And Snapper is 100% owned by Infratil. Not by KSCC.

It's becoming clear this is a case of "not made in Auckland" again, as I said before.

The fact that Snapper is owned by Infratil is irrelevant, as Snapper does not host the system. KSCC do, and neither Snapper nor AT nor NZTA have any control over it. This isn't even "not made in Auckland", this is not made or even operated in New Zealand and you seem to be going to quite some effort to overlook this.

ajobbins: Sorry I'm not sure what KSCC is?

Wasn't aware Snapper was hosting data overseas - Can you linked to a source showing what they store there. Even so, the processing I believe is still done on shore, and any data stored overseas is likely to be encrypted. I don't think it would be 'centralised' there - but maybe they have a data warehouse?

Snapper would still be accountable to AT if they won the business anyway, so I am not sure what your point is there. What's to say Thales isn't sending data back to France? Snapper is a vendor just as Thales is. Both were bidding for the work with ARTA/AT.

KSCC is Korea Smart Card Co, owned by Seoul Metro City Government, LG, and Credit Card Union. They operate in two countries - South Korea and New Zealand. They operate the T-Money (Korea) and Snapper (NZ) systems. See http://eng.koreasmartcard.com/jsp/newpub/oversea/english/solutions/S_success_new.jsp for more info on the Snapper solution, including where it states that the processing is actually done by the KSCC clearing house, and Snapper only receives the data in the form of a report at 9am the next day (explains the 24 hour lag on bus trips posting to your account I guess). KSCC goes into a bit more detail of what data is sent to them at http://eng.koreasmartcard.com/jsp/newpub/oversea/english/solutions/schemes_03.jsp as well. As you can see, it's A LOT.

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#678400 28-Aug-2012 21:11

Kyanar:
freitasm: With this alone you have lost all the credibility you had left on this topic, at least in my eyes. The first non-LG Snapper phone was the Samsung Galaxy SIII. And Monday Huawei announced the Ascend Y201 which is also a Touch2Pay handset - I have received one today and used with Snapper already.

I had heard that the non-LG phones had inferior support (i.e. you couldn't actually use the phone as a Snapper, just use it with the Snapper app to check balance etc) is this not the case? If so, my apologies there,

Whoever told you that is wrong. Read sbiddle's reply above this. The SIM Alliance API is used as the NFC API and is not present in all Android devices. The 2degrees handsets that are compatible have the SIM Alliance API deployed in their ROMs. This is a piece of software that interacts with a secure element present in the SIM card, which runs a small Java applet on the SIM. This is what gives the whole framework its security.

If the handset doesn't have this it can still be used, limited to reading or topping up existing Snapper cards but not as a Snapper itself. That's all it is.

What Snapper is introducing tomorrow is a way to deliver the secure element to compatible SIM cards, over the air:

In the past, a Snapper card would need to be produced in a secure publishing bureau and then shipped to where a customer can buy it. This is a physical process that takes time and effort, and results in a card that a customer needs to pay for.Touch2Pay with Snapper Mobile revolutionises this. By using the smartphone that a customer already has and the latest technology from ABnote and 2degrees, a customer can instantly add Snapper to their Touch2Pay compatible smartphone. And it’s all done using the highest standard of payment industry security.”

I have to say I support the idea of a single payment form (mobile phone or card) than having to carry around a cash card, a bus card, a credit card and a mobile phone.

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#678406 28-Aug-2012 21:15

Kyanar:
KSCC is Korea Smart Card Co, owned by Seoul Metro City Government, LG, and Credit Card Union. They operate in two countries - South Korea and New Zealand. They operate the T-Money (Korea) and Snapper (NZ) systems. See http://eng.koreasmartcard.com/jsp/newpub/oversea/english/solutions/S_success_new.jsp for more info on the Snapper solution, including where it states that the processing is actually done by the KSCC clearing house, and Snapper only receives the data in the form of a report at 9am the next day (explains the 24 hour lag on bus trips posting to your account I guess). KSCC goes into a bit more detail of what data is sent to them at http://eng.koreasmartcard.com/jsp/newpub/oversea/english/solutions/schemes_03.jsp as well. As you can see, it's A LOT.

I just got interested in this thread again...

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#678490 28-Aug-2012 23:03

Kyanar: KSCC is Korea Smart Card Co, owned by Seoul Metro City Government, LG, and Credit Card Union. They operate in two countries - South Korea and New Zealand. They operate the T-Money (Korea) and Snapper (NZ) systems. See http://eng.koreasmartcard.com/jsp/newpub/oversea/english/solutions/S_success_new.jsp for more info on the Snapper solution, including where it states that the processing is actually done by the KSCC clearing house, and Snapper only receives the data in the form of a report at 9am the next day (explains the 24 hour lag on bus trips posting to your account I guess). KSCC goes into a bit more detail of what data is sent to them at http://eng.koreasmartcard.com/jsp/newpub/oversea/english/solutions/schemes_03.jsp as well. As you can see, it's A LOT.

Interesting, tho largely unexciting. This sort of thing is fairly common - I see it every day. I wasn't aware Snapper were using this model, tho. Typically speaking there is nothing wrong with doing this, there are almost always systems in place to protect the data anyway (Encryption, non sensitive data being sent etc). And I haven't seen anything to show that the Thales solution wouldn't do anything similar.

You would be surprised how much of your 'data' gets processed overseas these days and it's fine.

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#678508 28-Aug-2012 23:34

Kyanar: The problem is that we wouldn't have even had this problem if Snapper had simply gotten over that they were not the preferred supplier, and not lobbied to be allowed to launch off ARTA's back after unsuccessfully suing them. I cannot by any stretch of the term think of Snapper as the good guys here,

I see it the other way around. Snapper have had a system in place and working for a good year now. Thales still don't have a working system in place for any form of transport in Auckland. I'd rather have some system than none at all.

And the electronic system does make a real difference to trip times. It's quite common to see 4 or 5 card-carrying passengers hop on the bus while the driver is dealing with a single cash customer. Depending on the length of your trip you can easily save several minutes, which is definitely a good thing if you're commuting to work.

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#678518 28-Aug-2012 23:52

Kyanar: KSCC goes into a bit more detail of what data is sent to them at http://eng.koreasmartcard.com/jsp/newpub/oversea/english/solutions/schemes_03.jsp as well. As you can see, it's A LOT.

Just because they get that data, it doesn't mean they use it for nefarious purposes. Any company that handles financial data (e.g. banks, payment processors) have to meet Payment Card Industry compliance standards, otherwise they risk facing huge fines or having their accounts all but shut off. These standards cover the storage, security and dissemination of payment data. Basically, if they try mining your data, they're in deep excrement.

KSCC shouldn't be any less safe than a local bank. And if you knew how much of your purchase information was available to your bank...

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#678526 29-Aug-2012 00:08

freitasm:

In the past, a Snapper card would need to be produced in a secure publishing bureau and then shipped to where a customer can buy it. This is a physical process that takes time and effort, and results in a card that a customer needs to pay for.Touch2Pay with Snapper Mobile revolutionises this. By using the smartphone that a customer already has and the latest technology from ABnote and 2degrees, a customer can instantly add Snapper to their Touch2Pay compatible smartphone. And it’s all done using the highest standard of payment industry security.”

I have to say I support the idea of a single payment form (mobile phone or card) than having to carry around a cash card, a bus card, a credit card and a mobile phone.

Oooh, that does sound neat. Would be awesome if we eventually saw it on other carriers, though I guess we won't see it on Telecom anytime soon since they've gotten in bed with the Thales solution (although they have Westpac on board too, so it's likely that it will be usable as a credit card as well).

ajobbins: Interesting, tho largely unexciting. This sort of thing is fairly common - I see it every day. I wasn't aware Snapper were using this model, tho. Typically speaking there is nothing wrong with doing this, there are almost always systems in place to protect the data anyway (Encryption, non sensitive data being sent etc). And I haven't seen anything to show that the Thales solution wouldn't do anything similar.

You would be surprised how much of your 'data' gets processed overseas these days and it's fine.

The problem there is that Snapper is under no obligation to tell us how the data is protected, or what they do with it, and what KSCC does with it. And although you say lots of data is processed overseas, I don't think it's as common as you think. And in terms of government, it almost never happens (usually because they aren't allowed). And very rarely is it something as sensitive as the physical movements of an entire city or country's public transport system (plus a large amount of retail transaction information). This is stuff I'd want to see stay within New Zealand's borders so that it remains subject to our privacy controls.

nzgeek: I see it the other way around. Snapper have had a system in place and working for a good year now. Thales still don't have a working system in place for any form of transport in Auckland. I'd rather have some system than none at all.

And the electronic system does make a real difference to trip times. It's quite common to see 4 or 5 card-carrying passengers hop on the bus while the driver is dealing with a single cash customer. Depending on the length of your trip you can easily save several minutes, which is definitely a good thing if you're commuting to work.

Well, "working" by various stretches of the term. I don't know about Wellington, but in Auckland you're more likely to hear "please try again" when swiping a Snapper than for the card to tag. Random fare overcharging due to system errors is still rampant, and penalty fares are frequently a certainty even if you do tag off. Visual cards are still the fastest possible method of boarding. Using a plastic monthly discovery pass, I can board and sit down in the time it takes two Snapper/HOP users to board. I just walk past the driver and display the card, the driver taps a button on their console, done.

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