Electric vehicles

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#1325361 15-Jun-2015 21:50

MikeB4: Yet no one has answered this which I ask in a civil manner "Can I ask why do people think it is such a bad thing that EV's are fitted with a device that will emit a low volume sound to save lives?"
I also ask you consider this in association with my comment that it is not just for crossing roads but also carparks, parks etc

I oppose any regulation that does not have a clear, scientifically or economically provable benefit that will result. Other regulations are a drag on society.

I oppose any regulation that basis for or against a particular technology. Laws should be specify outcomes not technology.

If you want to promote Zero emission vehicles via subsidies, have a zero emission vehicle subsidy not an "Electric vehicle" subsidy, and let engineers and entrepreneurs chose the best technology to get the job done)
If you want low speed noise makers on all quiet vehicles that can cause harm lobby for that. Don't just pick on "EV's". Hybrids, Luxury cars, bicycles, mobility scooters, cars costing with the engine off and trolley buses all meet this definition, and should be treated the same by law. However all there vehicles have been round a long time so we have had the opportunity to gather evidence, and I have yet to see anything that compels me that this is an issue worth tackling. Plus I sure don't want an allways on noisemaker on my bike...

I oppose un-needed noise pollution, city's are loud enough already.

I have no problem if a manufacture chose to included such a device, and consumers chose to buy the item. (such as the ex japan Nissan leafs), but I sure don't want availability of other EV's restricted due to the lack of an unwanted device.

Your comment on parks & carparks is a bit of a red hearing. These areas are deemed to be shared spaces, and as such pedestrian have right of way over cars. Requiring "get out of my way" hardware to warn right of way pedestrians run counter objectives of the law, and risks further lockin, that pedestrians should always give way to cars, leading to the expiation by drivers that they have right of way in area where they don't, which in turn increases risk to right of way pedestrians.

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#1325387 15-Jun-2015 22:37

MikeB4:
I would love a Tesla. However I think Hydrogen fuel cell is the ultimate future but a long way off.

So you would like to drive a nice big bomb around? Sounds like a great idea... Besides, the Hydrogen cars are more a wet wish from the traditional petrol companies so they can avoid going out of business as people start filling up their car at home instead of at a petrol station.

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#1325388 15-Jun-2015 22:40

Mark: I'm one of those weird people who drives a Smart (it's my commuting machine when not on the motorbike) .. but I've not heard many good things about the electric version, main gripe is the range being pathetic and there only being a limited number of them (and even less RHD verions).

If you could get your hands on the Tesla based prototype with big motor and battery it might be fun - the old article in Wired is worth reading - How Elon Musk Turned Tesla Into the Car Company of the Future - section about Smart starts about 1/3rd down - "When Straubel floored it, the front wheels lifted off the ground and the back tires left marks on the asphalt. Straubel called Musk and told him the car was ready for the Germans."

Tesla has really been a disruptive force. The same Wired article has a meeting between Musk and Toyoda (about 2/3rd down) after which Toyota agreed to invest $50m in Tesla. To go from startup in 2007 to having the Tesla S named car of the year (not just electric car of the year) two years running (2014/15) by Consumer Reports is amazing.

We forget how good the EV1 was for range. For those with time to spare and interest, an old story of a road trip Living in the Past, Getting Beat by the Future! is worth reading and recounts how the old NiMH version of the EV1 had a nominal range of 140 miles and highways speeds of 75 mph average were used. The EV1 was very aerodynamic which made a big difference to range for highway use. The acceleration also seemed very impressive (V8 Mustang example in the article).

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#1325391 15-Jun-2015 22:46

Why can't they build inductors on the motorways and Charge the cars driving through ... The faster you drive the stronger the charge!

Scott3

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#1325392 15-Jun-2015 22:48

jarledb:
MikeB4:
I would love a Tesla. However I think Hydrogen fuel cell is the ultimate future but a long way off.

So you would like to drive a nice big bomb around? Sounds like a great idea... Besides, the Hydrogen cars are more a wet wish from the traditional petrol companies so they can avoid going out of business as people start filling up their car at home instead of at a petrol station.

Cheapest way to make Hydrogen gas is by steam reforming, so hardly a green solution. (BTW Hydrogen gas is a mature product used in heavy industry in significant volumes, it is unlikely that the extra volume demanded by hydrogen cars will change the most cost effective Method)

Not that I have got anything against natural gas, but natural gas cars were common in the past, and are now rare in nz.

The pressures hydrogen is stored at in cars get me excited as an engineer, but not so much as a driver. You require some pretty impressive pressure vessels to hold it.

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#1325396 15-Jun-2015 23:00

joker97: Why can't they build inductors on the motorways and Charge the cars driving through ... The faster you drive the stronger the charge!

That's a pretty good idea.

There is some quite cool research going on at Auckland Uni about inductive power transfer. They are working to get the efficiency and maximum air gap up.

They did quite a push of Inductive Power Transfer (IPT) roadways(HALOipt?) (I went to a presentation back in 2012). Idea was that you had a small battery in your EV, (say 50km worth), and drove off battery on the local streets, and when you hit the highways you would get charged by transmitter impeded in the road, giving infinite range, with a cheap lightweight battery.

Great idea, but high capex ideas like this are very hard to get off the ground. You hit a pretty serious chicken or egg situation.

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#1325446 16-Jun-2015 06:39

Now this topic has reminded me of a childhood wish to have a full sized Scalextric car!

RUKI

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#1325478 16-Jun-2015 08:38

Jaxson: .....
Still not a lot of discussion around what you do with spent batteries. Last I checked they're still not particularly nice/ clean green and cudly inside..

The amount of NiCd, NiMH, Alkaline and other types thrown in the rubbish monthly by trades people and general public has greater impact IMHO.

I had some info on my site for 2 years now for NiMH (Prius, Lexus, Camry, Highlander, Honda, etc):

http://www.hybrids.co.nz/nimh-batteries/environment-safe-disposal/

Toyota has recycle program for traction batteries.

Lithium (Tesla, Nissan Leaf) are not of concern either.

Lead-Acid which are hazard to environment are almost all exported to China and recycled overseas.

RUKI

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#1325479 16-Jun-2015 08:52

Scott3:
joker97: Why can't they build inductors on the motorways and Charge the cars driving through ..

That's a pretty good idea. ...Great idea, .....

Bad, Bad, Bad idea. Inductors of all kind are highly dangerous for health and should be avoided, shielded.

Quick 4-step check of your awareness or electromagnetic radiation and RF radiation pollution:

1. Do you look inside your microwave when it is in operation?
2. Is your Wi-Fi router located on your desk?
3. Is your 3G phone is always in your pocket or near your pillow when you asleep?
4. Is your Switch Mode Power Supply / Laptop Charger is on your desk?

If you answered "yes" 4 times - the motorway with built-in inductors will be your final journey to cancer....
If they will do it - I will stop driving ....

What has not been raised in this topic yet (noise is nothing in comparison) is electromagnetic fields generated by MTG in some hybrid cars.

I have EM/RF meter. Want to try and see by yourself?

qyiet

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#1325483 16-Jun-2015 09:01

RUKI:
1. Do you look inside your microwave when it is in operation?
2. Is your Wi-Fi router located on your desk?
3. Is your 3G phone is always in your pocket or near your pillow when you asleep?
4. Is your Switch Mode Power Supply / Laptop Charger is on your desk?

ROFL - Poes law applies. But hey.. I guess we'll soon see that massive spike in cancers that was going to happen from cellphones in the 80s.. or should be happening about now from wifi adoption in 2000. Don't forget it should be 10 times bigger spike in the US because their wifi regulation allows for 10 times the transmission power.

edit: added a word for clarity

Warning: reality may differ from above post

frankv

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#1325484 16-Jun-2015 09:02

jarledb:
MikeB4:
I would love a Tesla. However I think Hydrogen fuel cell is the ultimate future but a long way off.

So you would like to drive a nice big bomb around? Sounds like a great idea... Besides, the Hydrogen cars are more a wet wish from the traditional petrol companies so they can avoid going out of business as people start filling up their car at home instead of at a petrol station.

Well, a bomb is a whole lot of energy which is released by a trigger. So every car (current and future) is a bomb. A hydrogen powered car would be less of a bomb, because one of the deficiencies of hydrogen as a fuel is that it has low energy density.... you can't carry anywhere near as much energy as pure hydrogen than you can as hydrocarbon.

Having said that, batteries have much lower energy density than hydrogen, although that is offset by much more efficient motors, much lighter motors and no gearbox, and ubiquitous availability of electricity.

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#1325498 16-Jun-2015 09:27

RUKI:
Scott3:
joker97: Why can't they build inductors on the motorways and Charge the cars driving through ..

That's a pretty good idea. ...Great idea, .....

Bad, Bad, Bad idea. Inductors of all kind are highly dangerous for health and should be avoided, shielded.

Quick 4-step check of your awareness or electromagnetic radiation and RF radiation pollution:

1. Do you look inside your microwave when it is in operation?
2. Is your Wi-Fi router located on your desk?
3. Is your 3G phone is always in your pocket or near your pillow when you asleep?
4. Is your Switch Mode Power Supply / Laptop Charger is on your desk?

If you answered "yes" 4 times - the motorway with built-in inductors will be your final journey to cancer....
If they will do it - I will stop driving ....

What has not been raised in this topic yet (noise is nothing in comparison) is electromagnetic fields generated by MTG in some hybrid cars.

I have EM/RF meter. Want to try and see by yourself?

What if cars come wrapped in tin foil? Will that both protect their occupants and induce faster?

jonathan18

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#1325507 16-Jun-2015 09:36

Jaxson: Still not a lot of discussion around what you do with spent batteries. Last I checked they're still not particularly nice/ clean green and cudly inside.

I heard an interview on the radio a few months back with a guy specialising in installing off-grid power options, and I recall he was pushing the use of 'spent' battery packs from hybrids for electricity storage for household use. The rationale was that the point where a car battery has lost an acceptable level of battery life is higher than for household usage, so with some modifications to the pack it was possible to get many more years' usage out of such 'spent' batteries in the home environment for storing power. I'd imagine the batteries for fully electric vehicles could be similarly used, and would have a higher capacity?

qyiet

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#1325614 16-Jun-2015 10:47

frankv: A hydrogen powered car would be less of a bomb, because one of the deficiencies of hydrogen as a fuel is that it has low energy density.... you can't carry anywhere near as much energy as pure hydrogen than you can as hydrocarbon.

You are forgetting that every compressed gas cylinder is a potential bomb even ones containing inert gasses... Yes there is less chemical energy there, but there is a whole lot of compressed mechanical energy that is seriously primed to explode should there be damage to its containment.

Warning: reality may differ from above post

RUKI

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#1325630 16-Jun-2015 10:54

jonathan18:
I heard an interview on the radio a few months back with a guy specialising in installing off-grid power options, and I recall he was pushing the use of 'spent' battery packs from hybrids for electricity storage for household use. The rationale was that the point where a car battery has lost an acceptable level of battery life is higher than for household usage, so with some modifications to the pack it was possible to get many more years' usage out of such 'spent' batteries in the home environment for storing power. I'd imagine the batteries for fully electric vehicles could be similarly used, and would have a higher capacity?

1) 'spent' battery packs from hybrids for electricity storage for household use - no good. Capacity is too low for that purpose even when new (~6AH), aged/old ~ 1 - 3AH. And you are not supposed to parallel NiMH to increase capacity. You can't do much with that stored energy...

Packs that I have tested recently from wreck yards were dead in 8 out of 10 cases with zero or near zero capacity left in them and very low capacity in some.

2) Li from EVs - of much higher capacity and can be paralleled. Those are really good. But again when you get used ones - will those have enough remaining capacity for your needs? I can test High Voltage batteries for remaining capacity (see www.hybrids.co.nz).

I did not have a chance to test second hand Leaf's yet as there were no wrecks awailable... I would buy second hand pack for R&D purposes.
If you hear about one - please let me know. Would be interesting to test ....

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