Guy buys hydrogen car but can't buy hydrogen

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Guy buys hydrogen car but can't buy hydrogen

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57 posts

Master Geek

#2836967 22-Dec-2021 16:28

MikeAqua:

rjh:

We do not have a decade to wait.

Waiting a decade, and another, and another, as we have been doing to date, is a sure way to burn the entire planet. It is what got us into this mess.

...

ICE is the only technology that has really delayed development of BEV.

Actually, BEV kickstarted ICE. We've been paying the price ever since.

mudguard

2113 posts

Uber Geek

#2836969 22-Dec-2021 16:31

rjh:

That seems a bit misinformed. There are very few vehicles that are cheaper than a Tesla Model 3, that can also outperform it. Even most more expensive vehicles are left far behind by Model 3. And the base model isn't even expensive.

As I asked earlier in the thread. If NZ's vehicle fleet average is 15 years, how useful will a 15 year old Tesla be vs a 15 year old ICE vehicle now? It's all well and good for those that can buy newer a cars, but it's clear that not everyone can.

MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#2836971 22-Dec-2021 16:34

rjh:

That's a pretty fast climb down from the specific statement "For long range or high speed there is no battery or hybrid solution and hydrogen is being pursued" with no other qualifications.

No climb down at all. Ika Rere doesn't contradict my statement as she is neither operating long range or high speed. She does a short run between charges, and moves relatively slowly (20 knots).

Mike

Obraik

2123 posts

Uber Geek

#2836973 22-Dec-2021 16:35

mudguard:

As I asked earlier in the thread. If NZ's vehicle fleet average is 15 years, how useful will a 15 year old Tesla be vs a 15 year old ICE vehicle now? It's all well and good for those that can buy newer a cars, but it's clear that not everyone can.

What's your concern with a 15 year old Tesla?

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Dingbatt

6754 posts

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Lifetime subscriber

#2836976 22-Dec-2021 16:38

rjh:

Actually, BEV kickstarted ICE. We've been paying the price ever since.

What price is that?

Do you mean the highest standard of living mankind has ever experienced, including the massive range of non local goods?

The most mobility?

The lowest mortality?

The highest level of food production?

Granted there are increased levels of toxic pollution, but compared to coal-fired days, even those are less.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

mudguard

2113 posts

Uber Geek

#2836979 22-Dec-2021 16:39

Obraik:

mudguard:

As I asked earlier in the thread. If NZ's vehicle fleet average is 15 years, how useful will a 15 year old Tesla be vs a 15 year old ICE vehicle now? It's all well and good for those that can buy newer a cars, but it's clear that not everyone can.

What's your concern with a 15 year old Tesla?

I'm curious about it's potential range. I don't know, call it 200,000kms old and however many recharges that requires. So that the person that has to buy a 15 year old car can compare it to ICE.

Obraik

2123 posts

Uber Geek

#2836980 22-Dec-2021 16:41

mudguard:

I'm curious about it's potential range. I don't know, call it 200,000kms old and however many recharges that requires. So that the person that has to buy a 15 year old car can compare it to ICE.

There are Tesla's in the US and Europe that have exceeded 500,000km on a battery pack and still have over 90% of their factory range.

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mudguard

2113 posts

Uber Geek

#2836982 22-Dec-2021 16:45

Obraik:

mudguard:

I'm curious about it's potential range. I don't know, call it 200,000kms old and however many recharges that requires. So that the person that has to buy a 15 year old car can compare it to ICE.

There are Tesla's in the US and Europe that have exceeded 500,000km on a battery pack and still have over 90% of their factory range.

That's pretty impressive. My concern was that the early EVs were going to have ranges that dropped off the planet once they got to a certain age.

Obraik

2123 posts

Uber Geek

#2836985 22-Dec-2021 16:49

mudguard:

That's pretty impressive. My concern was that the early EVs were going to have ranges that dropped off the planet once they got to a certain age.

That's definitely true of EVs like the Leaf that have no management of their battery thermals. Extreme temperatures is what kills batteries so those EVs like Tesla's that keep them in their ideal operating range will greatly improve their longevity. I think it's quite dishonest of Nissan to still sell the Leaf brand new today without any of this while still demanding a higher price than those that do.

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MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#2836986 22-Dec-2021 16:49

Obraik:

MikeAqua:

For a real vessel that does multi-day trips and covers 100s of miles, there is no BEV solution. The immediate solution is biodiesel and hydrogen after that. For long haul trucking you would either stop regularly to swap your tractor unit for one with a full charge (like a stage coach) or use biodiesel, and hydrogen after that.

Are we talking about long haul trucking in New Zealand? If that's the case then no, tractor unit swapping isn't going to be necessary. With something like the Tesla Semi that has 800km of range while fully loaded, that well exceeds the 5.5 hour limit for commercial truck drivers before they have to take a 30min break. With strategic placement of chargers at common truck stops, it can recharge back to 80% in less than half an hour.

Tesla's semi's range is for 36 tonnes gross mass (truck plus load). In NZ on major roads the limit is 53-tonnes so you have to majorly discount that range. If 53 tonnes isn't possible with a semi then may as well stick with ICE B-Trains.

Mike

Obraik

2123 posts

Uber Geek

#2836989 22-Dec-2021 17:00

MikeAqua:

Tesla's semi's range is for 36 tonnes gross mass (truck plus load). In NZ on major roads the limit is 53-tonnes so you have to majorly discount that range. If 53 tonnes isn't possible with a semi then may as well stick with ICE B-Trains.

Am I missing or something or does Waka Kotahi disagree with their 44 tonne limit (46 on specific routes). What is the most common truck size in NZ?

Again though, this is an example of one electric truck. The main point was, as long as the truck can drive 5.5 hours without stopping then an electric truck is no more of a hassle for a truck driver than a diesel.

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Ge0rge

2052 posts

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Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2836992 22-Dec-2021 17:07

You're missing everything with a yellow and black "H" card displayed front and rear.

here

MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#2836994 22-Dec-2021 17:33

rjh:

That seems a bit misinformed. There are very few vehicles that are cheaper than a Tesla Model 3, that can also outperform it. Even most more expensive vehicles are left far behind by Model 3. And the base model isn't even expensive.

Acceleration is impressive (anyone who owned a Tamiya car knows that). But that's were it ends.

It will be outperformed by almost any ICE because it will be stationary and charging while the ICE is still eating miles. That's the point. A Suzuki swift would pants it over a day's legal driving.

I have two vehicles. One cost less than 60k the other less than 40k. Neither was the 'base model' (shudder). The Model 3 cost $68k (according to Tesla). Both my cars out-range it. Neither out-accelerates it. One will out-corner it.

Now if I could afford the Audi Quattro BEV ... I'd buy one. But I think if had that much tin to burn I'd rather a GTR.

It is a factual statement that I find myself overtaking a lot of BEVs. They are usually being driven slowly and are a short vehicle (vs a truck or bus) so easy to pass. Obviously I'm talking about the open road.

Mike

MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#2837007 22-Dec-2021 17:37

Obraik:

Again though, this is an example of one electric truck. The main point was, as long as the truck can drive 5.5 hours without stopping then an electric truck is no more of a hassle for a truck driver than a diesel.

I'm saying it won't do that with 53 tonnes or it won't carry 53 tonnes and people will stick to diesel/hydrogen B-trains.

Big trucks don't refuel every 5.5 hours.

That said I'm sure there will be use cases for the semi, just not line hauling heavy loads in NZ.

When will we see them available for shipping to NZ?

Mike

MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#2837008 22-Dec-2021 17:39

Dingbatt:

Granted there are increased levels of toxic pollution, but compared to coal-fired days, even those are less.

Horses were nasty too. From a pollution perspective.

Mike

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