Nissan LEAF - General

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#2038077 15-Jun-2018 10:14

Can really see the wisdom in Tesla's over-the-air updating - If Nissan had this in place that would potentially be a trivial overnight fix.

But then its actually appalling that Tesla had to release a software update for something as fundemental as the braking system - that should always be rock solid before a car is released to market - It might be ok to upgrade/tweak navigation systems or in car entertainment system etc - but not the core controls on a car.

Sound like excellent news for Nissan Leaf owners though - the 30kwh batteries are not duds - just a software issue - Makes the Leaf well worth thinking about again.

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#2038081 15-Jun-2018 10:26

robjg63:

Can really see the wisdom in Tesla's over-the-air updating - If Nissan had this in place that would potentially be a trivial overnight fix.

I'm not convinced. If it can be updated over the air, it can be bricked over the air, deliberately or accidentally., and the current state of car computer security is about where general computing security was about 25 years ago. Unlike your Windows 95 PC though, if your car crashes the results are catastrophic.

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#2038298 15-Jun-2018 13:09

Will be interesting to see if it changes real range.

If I had a 30kWH leaf I would be interested to run it from 100% to start of turtle mode before and after the software upgrade and see how many km travelled.

happyfunball

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#2038354 15-Jun-2018 15:33

SaltyNZ:

robjg63:

Can really see the wisdom in Tesla's over-the-air updating - If Nissan had this in place that would potentially be a trivial overnight fix.

I'm not convinced. If it can be updated over the air, it can be bricked over the air, deliberately or accidentally., and the current state of car computer security is about where general computing security was about 25 years ago. Unlike your Windows 95 PC though, if your car crashes the results are catastrophic.

The only difference between over the air, and plugging in, is where/when its done. Either method can brick the car. There is no safety difference, the cars are not driving while they are updated, and you pick when it happens :)

If its done by the dealer it guarantee's a visit to them and if its bricked, the computer can be replaced on the spot. If it bricks in your driveway, and you can't do a factory reset, then you may need a tow truck :(

Nissan may not have a factory reset option on the BMS so they are doing it manually.

OTA is better, since you have the option of driving up to the dealer to do it if you want before you push the update button, but it does mean you have to pay for a more robust computer system in the car upfront.

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#2038388 15-Jun-2018 16:42

afe66: Will be interesting to see if it changes real range.

If I had a 30kWH leaf I would be interested to run it from 100% to start of turtle mode before and after the software upgrade and see how many km travelled.

Ideally, shouldn't the measurement of the declining range of the battery of an EV be measured by driving the car from a battery charge of 100% to 0% and comparing the range achieved doing as near to identical runs as possible several times a year?

If this was done, there wouldn't be as much room for argument as there is when SOH measurements are the main means of comparison.

WelshGit

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#2038721 16-Jun-2018 17:27

frednz:

afe66: Will be interesting to see if it changes real range.

If I had a 30kWH leaf I would be interested to run it from 100% to start of turtle mode before and after the software upgrade and see how many km travelled.

Ideally, shouldn't the measurement of the declining range of the battery of an EV be measured by driving the car from a battery charge of 100% to 0% and comparing the range achieved doing as near to identical runs as possible several times a year?

If this was done, there wouldn't be as much room for argument as there is when SOH measurements are the main means of comparison.

I rapid-charged my 30kWH leaf today from 25% to 81%, and the charger reported just over 10kWH delivered to the vehicle. Unless the vehicle battery management is under/over reporting (reporting 25% when there is more than 25% charge, or reporting 81% when there is less than 81% charge), then there does seem to be real capacity loss.

Since the charger itself is unlikely to over-report the power delivered, it would be easy to use this to estimate capacity loss. Maybe FlipTheFleet could ask Leaf owners to log % charge vs power delivered?

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#2038964 17-Jun-2018 09:11

frednz:

If this was done, there wouldn't be as much room for argument as there is when SOH measurements are the main means of comparison.

There have been plenty of tests to show that the power output of the battery is limited by the battery management system, ie. SOH. Many tests to show that the SOH is a good indication of the power level of the battery and a good reflector of range. Lower SOH means lower range.

And last of all, a statement from Nissan about a software patch, saying the SOH is incorrect and range was reduced as a result. What more do you need??

SOH is a great measure of usable capacity and range, and if SOH changes, so does your capacity and range.

Aredwood

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#2038974 17-Jun-2018 09:30

robjg63:
Can really see the wisdom in Tesla's over-the-air updating - If Nissan had this in place that would potentially be a trivial overnight fix.

But then its actually appalling that Tesla had to release a software update for something as fundemental as the braking system - that should always be rock solid before a car is released to market - It might be ok to upgrade/tweak navigation systems or in car entertainment system etc - but not the core controls on a car.

Sound like excellent news for Nissan Leaf owners though - the 30kwh batteries are not duds - just a software issue - Makes the Leaf well worth thinking about again.

Toyota have also had problems with the brakes in some Prius models. That were also caused by software.

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/04/japan.prius.complaints/index.html

At a base level, the software decides in response to the driver pressing the brake pedal. How much regenerative braking to apply VS braking via the conventional braking system. And the ABS and stability control systems also have the ability to override the brake input from the driver. So even in an ICE car, you are still reliant on correctly functioning software for the brakes to work. Unless you buy an old car that doesn't have ABS brakes.

GV27

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#2039118 17-Jun-2018 14:17

Hopefully this drops the prices of the Leafs as a result of people no longer shying away from them. I'm keen to replace an old 99 Corolla with an G spec Leaf but prices need to come down a little first.

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#2039127 17-Jun-2018 15:04

GV27:

Hopefully this drops the prices of the Leafs as a result of people no longer shying away from them. I'm keen to replace an old 99 Corolla with an G spec Leaf but prices need to come down a little first.

Hasn't the price of Leafs actually gone up over this year? That certainly happened in the months after we bought ours last December, and is something my sister told me, having bought one this month. I think I read a record number of registrations last month, so still strong demand...

frednz

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#2039176 17-Jun-2018 17:47

happyfunball:

frednz:

If this was done, there wouldn't be as much room for argument as there is when SOH measurements are the main means of comparison.

There have been plenty of tests to show that the power output of the battery is limited by the battery management system, ie. SOH. Many tests to show that the SOH is a good indication of the power level of the battery and a good reflector of range. Lower SOH means lower range.

And last of all, a statement from Nissan about a software patch, saying the SOH is incorrect and range was reduced as a result. What more do you need??

SOH is a great measure of usable capacity and range, and if SOH changes, so does your capacity and range.

http://evsenhanced.com/solving-30kwh-leaf-cell-imbalance-problems/

From the above:

In addition to the widely publicised issues around high degradation rates in 30kWh variants of the Nissan Leaf, we are seeing an increasing number of individual cell failures in 30kWh Leaf battery packs. As of early 2018, cell failures that we’re aware of have been extremely rare for all of the 24kWh models of the Leaf.

Do you think the alleged 30 kWh battery problem really can all be fixed by Nissan's recent software patch?

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happyfunball

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#2039237 17-Jun-2018 20:03

frednz:
Do you think the alleged 30 kWh battery problem really can all be fixed by Nissan's recent software patch?

I guess faulty software could cause all kinds of problems including cell failures. The BMS is responsible for cell health.

Cybnate

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#2040302 19-Jun-2018 10:26

Battery Management System (BMS) software update is reportedly still not available. Just checked with my local Nissan dealer.

Patch is only available in USA apparently. Hope my query helps to speed up the delivery to New Zealand. My 2016 30KW Leaf SoH is now also on verge of loosing a bar with around 86% reported in Leafspy.

happyfunball

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#2040322 19-Jun-2018 10:51

Cybnate:
Battery Management System (BMS) software update is reportedly still not available. Just checked with my local Nissan dealer.

Patch is only available in USA apparently. Hope my query helps to speed up the delivery to New Zealand. My 2016 30KW Leaf SoH is now also on verge of loosing a bar with around 86% reported in Leafspy.

EVs enhanced in Christchurch posted on Facebook they have used the patch successfully and are testing the results.

So it’s definitely in NZ already but maybe not officially through NZ Nissan.

https://www.facebook.com/358005631280524/posts/480103922404027/

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#2040344 19-Jun-2018 12:00

Cybnate:

Battery Management System (BMS) software update is reportedly still not available. Just checked with my local Nissan dealer.

Patch is only available in USA apparently. Hope my query helps to speed up the delivery to New Zealand. My 2016 30KW Leaf SoH is now also on verge of loosing a bar with around 86% reported in Leafspy.

Pffff, lightweight, I'm on 10 bars already with 26,000km on the clock. [Quiet sobbing].

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