Nissan LEAF - General

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#1597853 24-Jul-2016 20:23

dwl:
Linuxluver:

Beccara:

Leafspy health is around 86%, at 85% the 1st bar will drop. 1st bar is 15% capacity then each bar onwards is 6.something %

Thanks. I have LeafSpy and a dongle. Which stat is the relevant one? Which screen is the "86%" health on?

On the histogram screen, the AHr and SOH at the top are the battery capacity (don't vary with charge level). A 24 kWh Leaf with a new battery shows just over 66 AHr and 100% SOH. The extra measure of Hx is sometimes called health and seems to be related to the battery internal resistance, also around 100% when new.

Thanks, Don.

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Scott3

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#1597879 24-Jul-2016 22:28

Linuxluver:

I bought my 2015 Gen2 Model S LEAF to see if it would work for me / us.

It works. My wife loves it. Too well. We don't drive our petrol car anymore unless a absolutely have to (need to go different places at the same time). We won't be buying another petrol car. That's over.

But we have decided to buy a 2016 "Tekna" LEAF from the UK. It's got 3000km on it. A 6.6kw charger (so twice as fast at 30amps as the 2015 Model S at 3.3 kw at 15amps...even on a 30amp charger) and it has a 30kw battery pack for about 15% more range.....so about 210km, says Nissan. *Almost* enough to get from our house in Greenlane to Tauranga. We may have to charge up somewhere on the way for 15-30 minutes just to lock it in. :-) (We'd normally stop in Paeroa or Waihi anyway).

This car easily do Auckland to Whangarei without recharging until you get to Whangarei.

So...progress already. By 2018-2020 new EVs will be doing 400km on a full charge....Bring it on.

Wow, That was a fast upgrade. I'm sure you will like the Tekna. That's the one with the 360 degree camera right?

I am interested in why people value the 6.6kW charger so much. 3.3kW will fully charge the flat 30kWh leaf in 8-9 hours, so fast enough for the rare overnight charge of a fully flat car. 6.6Kw will do it in 4 - 4.5 hours (only if you have a 30A connection of course). If you drive near the limit of your range each day, I can see the point of the 6.6kW charging (fit charge into 1:30am to 5:30am cheap electricity window), but otherwise I can't see the point. Unless you are going to be stopping anyway at somewhere which happens to have a 30A EVSE (like the Sylvia park mall) for 2+ hours, it is too slow for long trips, you really need 40kW+ fast charging for that.

Are you going to get a bigger EVSE than your current install?

I can definitely see the benefit of the bigger battery though.

The Leaf with the 30kWh battery has NEDC rated range of 210km, and a EPA rated range of 172 km. The EPA cycle is a lot more realistic. Nothing faster than a 16A charge listed on the routes between Auckland and Tauranga at the moment, but there is a DC fast charger in Hamilton that will allow you to make the trip, and one under construction in Thames too.

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#1597910 25-Jul-2016 08:15

Scott3:

Wow, That was a fast upgrade. I'm sure you will like the Tekna. That's the one with the 360 degree camera right?

I am interested in why people value the 6.6kW charger so much. 3.3kW will fully charge the flat 30kWh leaf in 8-9 hours, so fast enough for the rare overnight charge of a fully flat car. 6.6Kw will do it in 4 - 4.5 hours (only if you have a 30A connection of course). If you drive near the limit of your range each day, I can see the point of the 6.6kW charging (fit charge into 1:30am to 5:30am cheap electricity window), but otherwise I can't see the point. Unless you are going to be stopping anyway at somewhere which happens to have a 30A EVSE (like the Sylvia park mall) for 2+ hours, it is too slow for long trips, you really need 40kW+ fast charging for that.

Are you going to get a bigger EVSE than your current install?

I can definitely see the benefit of the bigger battery though.

The Leaf with the 30kWh battery has NEDC rated range of 210km, and a EPA rated range of 172 km. The EPA cycle is a lot more realistic. Nothing faster than a 16A charge listed on the routes between Auckland and Tauranga at the moment, but there is a DC fast charger in Hamilton that will allow you to make the trip, and one under construction in Thames too.

The internal charger was one detail I had overlooked in my research on the LEAF. As you say, you can top up at home in about 8 hours from empty on 16amp (and I'm rarely below 50%), so for around town the 3.3kw charger isn't really an issue. By "around town" I mean anywhere between Warkworth and Te Kauwhata.....those being - roughly - my point of no return on a single charge.

Also, Auckland now has 5 times as many fast chargers as Brisbane......a larger city.... and twice as many as Toronto...a MUCH larger city. So LEAF / EV owners are relatively well served. But to go further afield a car with a 3.3KW charger NEEDS to have access to the 50kw rapid DC chargers. A 20 minute stop is no issue for me. But you can't drive 120km-150km (depending on terrain, weather and driving style) and then sit for 7-8 hours (3.3kw / 16amp) to charge up.....but you (well....I) might wait for 3 hours with a 6.6kw charger to bridge the gap between fast chargers. It's the difference between a day trip and an overnight trip.

Bottom line? There are quite a few 30amp chargers around....and being able to charge twice as fast if you NEED to is better than not. :-)

As for destinations, in particular, Tauranga. It's 212km from my house. I can't get there on one charge....and I can't charge in a timely fashion to bridge the gap today unless I go via the WEL rapid charger at Te Rapa. There is a 32kw charger at the Kopu Cafe in Thames.....and an hour there for lunch charging at 6.6kw would do the trick.....but at 3.3kw it's more like 2 hours. Tomorrow I'm planning to head there via the rapid charger at WEL in Hamilton. My 2015 Gen2 with a full-capacity (not degraded) 24kw should be able to do it.

Looking around the Plugshare charger map there are a good number of sites that deliver 30kw....and a 3.3kw LEAF can only charge at half that speed. That slows me down and it slows down anyone else who might be waiting for that charger.

That's why I want to upgrade. The 6.6kw / 30KW battery LEAF is the only affordable EV that can conceivably get to Tauranga, Rotorua and Taupo in a timely fashion. The faster charging and longer range open up more potential destinations for longer trips. Half a dozen rapid chargers spaced down SH1 at 70km intervals would put Wellington in easy reach, with a 25 minute stop every 2 hours. That's do-able for me. I drive like that anyway. It's the young guys who get tunnel vision combined with continuation bias......and go into ditches driving 4-5 hours at a stretch. ;-)

With the Tekna I'll look at putting a 30amp Juicepoint or Delta charger in my car port. No point doing it unless I have a 6.6kw internal charger. Then I don't need an EVSE.

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dwl

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#1597945 25-Jul-2016 09:46

Scott3:
I am interested in why people value the 6.6kW charger so much. 3.3kW will fully charge the flat 30kWh leaf in 8-9 hours, so fast enough for the rare overnight charge of a fully flat car. 6.6Kw will do it in 4 - 4.5 hours (only if you have a 30A connection of course).

It depends on where you live as well and your daily patterns. We live rural and it isn't unusual to go to a nearby town and come back with a different trip (or more) later in the day. There are times when the 3.6 kW charger isn't putting enough back in before we go out next, probably in a different direction. The home charging with minimal effort (unlike waiting at an intermediate en-route location) can benefit from the 6.6 kW charger.

RUKI

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#1598265 25-Jul-2016 15:36

You may wish to dig into upgrading your 3Kw charger to 6kW charger.

Standalone they are of no use and second hand from wrecks in USA are going into scrap for the price of Aluminium (a lot of it in the charger). The guy I know over there just dumped one into the scrap yard.

Most likely software upgrade would be required for the swap like that.

The internals of the 3.6Kw charger are in my video here:

Leaf on board charger

Batman

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#1598579 25-Jul-2016 21:51

You know when you queue at a petrol station, a long wait is 15 mins.
When you guys say there's a charger at such and such a place, you mean there is one charger or more than one? How long will the queue be if five or ten cars need to charge?

dwl

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#1598585 25-Jul-2016 22:20

joker97: You know when you queue at a petrol station, a long wait is 15 mins.
When you guys say there's a charger at such and such a place, you mean there is one charger or more than one? How long will the queue be if five or ten cars need to charge?

For the DC fast chargers most locations have one charger (often two parking spaces) with a few having more (e.g. Gillies Ave has two DC fast chargers). The lower powered EVSE (the charger is actually in the car) as at some shops may have one or more (our local supermarket has two).

With the current EV population it is rare to have to wait for any other car to finish charging at a DC fast charger in Wellington and my brief experience in Auckland was also no delay. If there were 5 cars waiting that means a larger EV population and more chargers are likely to have been installed by then, either more at same site or additional sites.

It is a valid concern as the charge time is longer than filling with petrol but at the moment if there was any wait it is a very solicable time compared to waiting for petrol where you are unlikely to chat with anyone else waiting. The important bit is most charging is done at home so the use of the public facilities less ratio than for petrol where every fill is at public station.

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#1598586 25-Jul-2016 22:26

Not normally, no.

But chuck in a long weekend or some other event and you could have competition for electricity and be stuck for a very long time.

dwl

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#1598589 25-Jul-2016 22:43

joker97: Not normally, no.

But chuck in a long weekend or some other event and you could have competition for electricity and be stuck for a very long time.

Probably wouldn't wait there very long but head for an alternate (should always have a backup plan as the charger could also be down - was an issue in the UK but reliability now better and has been good here). Definitely true that if you need a fast charge it is not guaranteed and petrol/diesel more certain. The good news is a slow charge is available in far more places than you can fill with petrol.

Beccara

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#1598591 25-Jul-2016 22:48

As China enters the charger market and 10-20kw units becoming affordable and easier to connect to the grid i feel that the 6kw market will shrink alot, 16a at least had caravan based infrastructure in NZ to use but 32a is going to need alot more work to install and for all that effort if 3p is available a 10kw rapid would open up to more users than 32a 1p AC.

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All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated

Scott3

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#1598651 26-Jul-2016 01:52

RUKI:

You may wish to dig into upgrading your 3Kw charger to 6kW charger.

He is upgrading the charger by swapping out the entire car :) Gotta be the best way to do it :)

In regards to 30/32A charging at home, how much electrical capacity do you guys have? Why I ask, is that I am fairly tight with capacity.

I have a 63A main breaker (excludes 16A controlled hot water breaker). I guess my pole fuse is 80A (my parent palace has 2x 63A phases)

Our house is all electric (gas in street, but wasn't run to house when we brought it). Recently upgraded to induction hobs, which are awesome, but can draw 32A on their own (and even that 32A don't have full diversity. I.E. if I put the frount left element on full power (3.7kW 5 minute burst), the back left can be higher than a simmer). Oven can use another 16A, kettle 10A, and toaster 5A. This puts me at the limit.

I still have: - Tumble dryer (10A) - 8kW heat pump (10A draw), fan heater in study (6.5A), oil heater in bedroom (5A), Lights, & smaller stuff (heaps of computer gear / tv / heated towel rails x3 / ventilation fans) & infrequent stuff (hairdryers / Vacuum / electric weed wacker / big drill press / heavy bench grinder / other power tools)

I think I would have nuisance tripping issues if I installed a 32A EVSE (charge cord) at my house, unless I made sure I never cooked while full speed charging (probably not to hard if I just normally set a time to charge in the middle of the night). 16A would still be tight.

Based on the Chevy Bolt I guess the next gen of EV's will have 60kWh batterers. At this size a 16A charge is a bit slow really, it would take 16 hours to fully charge a battery.

I assume my breakers are the normal type which take a while to trip. i.e. you can go quite a way over the breakers limits without tripping as long as it's only for a short time, as they are protecting the wiring from overheating, and wires take time to heat up slightly overloaded.

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#1598653 26-Jul-2016 02:15

I expect that we will see chargers that have a current transfromer around your mains and you tell it the total limit before long. Even a 16A charger could be a problem if I am in get cleaning done mode and have the washer and dryer running along with keeping the house warm.

Richard rich.ms

RUKI

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#1598881 26-Jul-2016 11:45

Scott3:

In regards to 30/32A charging at home, how much electrical capacity do you guys have? Why I ask, is that I am fairly tight with capacity.....

Many companies who sell stuff - they do not like people who can count money well, who are good with numbers and can apply analytical skills to their day to day life...

My household has similar 63A feed but even with the Solar and Tesla PowerWall - it is not even close enough for the coming new EV models to be charged at home.

Range anxiety may fade away one day but queuing for the fast charger anxiety would be not that easy to overcome without Government support.

Population density in NZ is too low to justify Fast Charger every 50 km nation-wide to generate enough ROI from not that many EV owners.

Linuxluver

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#1599357 27-Jul-2016 08:36

joker97: You know when you queue at a petrol station, a long wait is 15 mins.
When you guys say there's a charger at such and such a place, you mean there is one charger or more than one? How long will the queue be if five or ten cars need to charge?

A key difference: most EV charging is done at home. That makes it VERY different to the petrol station model. But there are times when you're between cities or doing a lot of driving in one day when it is very handy to be able to get back to 80% in 15-20 minutes and get on with your day.

The main difference here is that each EV will use public charging stations far less than petrol cars require petrol station access. So you can sustain more EVs with less public infrastructure.

So far, I've only ever had to wait two times (Kaiwaka on the way to an EV event in Whangarei and Silverdale one evening - had a nice chat with two LEAF owners).

I've never had to wait at WEL in Te Rapa, despite it being the only rapid charger in Hamilton. I did not have to wait at the charge.net.nz rapid charger in Mt Maunganui yesterday.

So far...it's not a problem. EVs are still thin on the ground. As of June 30th, there were about 1509 registered in the whole country...and about a 3rd of those are in Auckland alone.

However....the last question you pose is a real one. What if 10 EVs (Nissan LEAFs, let's say - range 150km) set off for Wellington at 8am on a given day...and they all require charging at a thin chain of single rapid chargers at intervals down the North Island. (If they existed. They currently don't past Hamilton.) If they all arrive at the first charging station at about the same time (within a 30 minute window - allowing for driving styles), 8 out of 10 will have to wait. How long they wait will depend on their spot in the queue. Worst case is 8 x 25 mins....is 3 hours and 20 mins. That's too long.

But let's look two years out. Most EVs then have 400km range. They can easily get from Auckland to Turangi without recharging. At a 165kw supercharger than be at 80% within 15-20 mins. Onward to Wellington.

Tesla build their supercharger stations in groups of 8.....from the photos I've seen. We haven't been doing that, but Vector are installing pairs of 50kw ABB (brand) chargers. Two new ones just popped up at Greenlane behind the Mcdonalds. they went live on Monday. Two more are going in at a BP station at 322 Pakuranga Rd.....and two more are going in at the shopping centre right near Auckland Airport in the coming weeks.

In a month or so, Auckland will have more rapid chargers than Brisbane and Toronto COMBINED.

So for EV owners who live on the fringes of Auckland - up to 120km (assume a LEAF) out in any direction (that isn't underwater) - getting to the city and back again will be trivial.

WEL in Hamilton are soon to install 3 more rapid chargers at Te Kawhata, Raglan and Hamilton CBD.

Charge.net.nz are installing one at the Library in Thames and the New World in Warkworth.

The Taupo City Council has called for tendors for a rapid charging station in one of their parking areas.

It's happening. It's happening fast.

Once people drive EVs they (typically) just can not see going back to a petrol car.

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Linuxluver

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#1599360 27-Jul-2016 08:56

RUKI:

Scott3:

In regards to 30/32A charging at home, how much electrical capacity do you guys have? Why I ask, is that I am fairly tight with capacity.....

Many companies who sell stuff - they do not like people who can count money well, who are good with numbers and can apply analytical skills to their day to day life...

My household has similar 63A feed but even with the Solar and Tesla PowerWall - it is not even close enough for the coming new EV models to be charged at home.

Range anxiety may fade away one day but queuing for the fast charger anxiety would be not that easy to overcome without Government support.

Population density in NZ is too low to justify Fast Charger every 50 km nation-wide to generate enough ROI from not that many EV owners.

On longer time scales investment is no problem. The problem is NZ's typically very short term private investment horizons. Only the government has ever been consistently capable building for.......the future. This is why governments all over the planet are getting in front of this change...and building infrastructure (both public and in private partnerships).

We aren't the US with billionaire visionaries like Elon Musk. We get the Eric Watson bean-counter sort who asset strip.....not build.

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