Nissan LEAF - General

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#2040356 19-Jun-2018 12:23

jonathan18:

GV27:

Hopefully this drops the prices of the Leafs as a result of people no longer shying away from them. I'm keen to replace an old 99 Corolla with an G spec Leaf but prices need to come down a little first.

Hasn't the price of Leafs actually gone up over this year? That certainly happened in the months after we bought ours last December, and is something my sister told me, having bought one this month. I think I read a record number of registrations last month, so still strong demand...

There has been an uptick in the 24kwh prices (guess they're more in favour given the 30kwh issues) but there are far more people bringing them in now.

tripper1000

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#2040520 19-Jun-2018 14:57

Yeah, I was yarning with a dealer and he said the 30Kw's had been dropping in price due to the concerns and good 24ks's had been rising as people err'd on the side of caution.

I guess the trend could now reverse, but overall I don't think Leaf's are going to drop in price. Most kiwi's buy 2nd hand Jap imports and because there is a fixed number of 2nd hand cars coming out of Japan but an increase in demand here, prices can only go up.

gulfa

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#2040763 19-Jun-2018 21:03

https://evobsession.com/150-mile-nissan-leaf-2018/

Worth reading for all those interested

gulfa

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#2040764 19-Jun-2018 21:05

John Hornblow
1 hr
feedback from the USA on 30 kWh battery fix...
I had it done a week ago Friday.
Went in with two bars lost, then I magically gained them back. My 2016 SV with 36,000 miles is showing full battery capacity now.
They're saying that the Lizard batteries aren't really losing capacity like your car is saying it is.
There is an error in the way it calculates battery health and also the GOM. So they are reprogramming the battery not to "lie", and adjusting the GOM also.
At first I was ticked thinking that Nissan is just trying to get out of buying new Lizard batteries for the newer Leafs that have lost four bars under warranty, but I've heard from a trusted tech that the batteries they've pulled out of Leafs that have shown 4 bars lost, once they tested the batteries, they are showing minimal capacity loss.
So, who knows? But that's what I've heard

frednz

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#2040775 19-Jun-2018 21:42

gulfa:

John Hornblow
1 hr
feedback from the USA on 30 kWh battery fix...
I had it done a week ago Friday.
Went in with two bars lost, then I magically gained them back. My 2016 SV with 36,000 miles is showing full battery capacity now.
They're saying that the Lizard batteries aren't really losing capacity like your car is saying it is.
There is an error in the way it calculates battery health and also the GOM. So they are reprogramming the battery not to "lie", and adjusting the GOM also.
At first I was ticked thinking that Nissan is just trying to get out of buying new Lizard batteries for the newer Leafs that have lost four bars under warranty, but I've heard from a trusted tech that the batteries they've pulled out of Leafs that have shown 4 bars lost, once they tested the batteries, they are showing minimal capacity loss.
So, who knows? But that's what I've heard

A good story and backs up what a few of us were saying on this forum that it could be the software at fault and not the batteries themselves.

But, with all the experience Nissan acquired from the 24 kWh Leafs, how could the software for the 30 kWh models go so badly wrong and take so long to correct?

In other words, was the software for the 30 kWh models fundamentally different from that used on the 24 kWh models and if so, why?

I don't think there has been a major problem with the software for the 24 kWh models?

old3eyes

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#2040873 20-Jun-2018 09:14

frednz:

gulfa:

John Hornblow
1 hr
feedback from the USA on 30 kWh battery fix...
I had it done a week ago Friday.
Went in with two bars lost, then I magically gained them back. My 2016 SV with 36,000 miles is showing full battery capacity now.
They're saying that the Lizard batteries aren't really losing capacity like your car is saying it is.
There is an error in the way it calculates battery health and also the GOM. So they are reprogramming the battery not to "lie", and adjusting the GOM also.
At first I was ticked thinking that Nissan is just trying to get out of buying new Lizard batteries for the newer Leafs that have lost four bars under warranty, but I've heard from a trusted tech that the batteries they've pulled out of Leafs that have shown 4 bars lost, once they tested the batteries, they are showing minimal capacity loss.
So, who knows? But that's what I've heard

A good story and backs up what a few of us were saying on this forum that it could be the software at fault and not the batteries themselves.

But, with all the experience Nissan acquired from the 24 kWh Leafs, how could the software for the 30 kWh models go so badly wrong and take so long to correct?

In other words, was the software for the 30 kWh models fundamentally different from that used on the 24 kWh models and if so, why?

I don't think there has been a major problem with the software for the 24 kWh models?

But how do you know that the so called software fix isn't masking the real problem by fudging the results?? Been done before in the auto industry ??

Regards,

Old3eyes

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happyfunball

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#2040927 20-Jun-2018 10:59

old3eyes:

But how do you know that the so called software fix isn't masking the real problem by fudging the results?? Been done before in the auto industry ??

It could be that the software is increasing usable capacity at the expense of safety and longevity, time will tell.

One theory is that as the battery degrades, the software allows for a higher total voltage in the battery, which increases the rate of degradation but keeps total usable capacity the same. Apparently the BMW i3 does that now.

tripper1000

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#2040958 20-Jun-2018 11:17

... you know because you do an Amp/hour discharge test on the battery, as others have mentioned.

I'm sure Nissan doesn't blindly throw away batteries that are replaced under warranty - at the least they'll be sending them back to their supplier with a "please explain" demand. This is how the quality loop works and how a model (any model) is refined - they analyse the items that fail early to correct the problem going forward. In this case it is a computer saying the batteries are deteriorated, and the post mortems have presumably shown no corresponding deterioration. Therefore the computer is incorrectly reporting battery health, which is a programming fix. It isn't a problem that could easily be hidden because 1) people would run out of juice on the side of the road if the revised GOM programming was lying, and 2) people can simply do a discharge test on the battery to check it corresponds with the BMS reported data.

The 24Kw's do do some strange things when you really look closely at them, just not quite like this. For instance, keep 2 kw unusable and in reserve. I have a suspicion that they under-report and under utilise battery capacity when new and as the battery decays gradually report and utilise closer to the entire capacity, so it appears that the battery is decaying slower. I supect this because the better the battery, the higher the zero or empty voltage. In the lithum battery world 3.0 volts is empty, but there isn't a consistent zero capacity voltage in the 24wk Leaf.

BMS's in laptops are notorious for under-reporting battery capacity when the laptops are never discharged down to/past zero. I've seen laptops run for 2 hours after the battery meter say 0%. No one ever runs their Leaf down to past zero to prove the GOM is incorrect - I'm not sure if it is actually possible.

frednz

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#2042753 23-Jun-2018 09:49

http://evtalk.co.nz/nissan-leaf-30kwh-checks-continue/

Flip the Fleet and electrical engineer Walter Larason of EVs Enhanced have responded to EVtalk’s story about a software upgrade being issued for the Nissan Leaf 30kWh.

Nissan says the update will “fix the 2016 and 2017 Nissan Leaf 30kWh battery controller’s inaccurate calculations of state of health (SoH) and range”.

But Henrik Moller of Flip the Fleet says “there is as yet insufficient information available to form any reliable scientific conclusion about whether Nissan’s instrumentation error is a sufficient explanation for the observed declines in reported battery health of 30kWh Leafs.

He hopes Nissan will share its technical data."

It's interesting that "Flip the Fleet" wants to delve further into this matter!

happyfunball

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#2042829 23-Jun-2018 13:53

frednz:

http://evtalk.co.nz/nissan-leaf-30kwh-checks-continue/

Flip the Fleet and electrical engineer Walter Larason of EVs Enhanced have responded to EVtalk’s story about a software upgrade being issued for the Nissan Leaf 30kWh.

Nissan says the update will “fix the 2016 and 2017 Nissan Leaf 30kWh battery controller’s inaccurate calculations of state of health (SoH) and range”.

But Henrik Moller of Flip the Fleet says “there is as yet insufficient information available to form any reliable scientific conclusion about whether Nissan’s instrumentation error is a sufficient explanation for the observed declines in reported battery health of 30kWh Leafs.

He hopes Nissan will share its technical data."

It's interesting that "Flip the Fleet" wants to delve further into this matter!

The jury is still out over whether the 30kwh models are degrading faster or not, FTF conclusively showed they were (in terms of usable range) but whether this software fix helps is something that hasn't been studied yet. I'm glad FTF is still involved, they are in it for the long haul.

RUKI

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#2043305 24-Jun-2018 21:45

Re: Software and Li batteries. Software bug or lack of proper calibration could effect Li battery pack performance. Simple example - in HP Laptop Li battery controller has few calibrations/thresholds - and that is different from what user has access to via MS Windows Power Management Menu. And usable remaining capacity could be manipulated from those calibrations.

As for the 30 kWh batteries software "patch" - boys at Nissan overseas have already downloaded it. My position is simple: Nissan NZ have to sort that upgrade themselves. It is no different from any other automotive industry recalls IMO. You would not be changing Airbags, or faulty pumps, brakes, etc even if you could, right?

Testing which Nissan can't perform is completely different story.

If there is an interested party (e.g. Educational Institution) who is keen to perform real life capacity test -> it is doable in Auckland. I finally got couple of Safety Plugs for both ZEO /AZEO as an easiest insertion point into the battery HV circuit.

I can make a rig and use my portable Battery Capacity Analyzer to measure Capacity on a dedicated route.

That could capture periods of load and periods of charge during recuperation for future analysis for those interested...

Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair

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nzlemming

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#2043773 25-Jun-2018 20:09

frednz:

It's interesting that "Flip the Fleet" wants to delve further into this matter!

It's because he's an honest bloke and it's much better to know what's going on than endlessly speculate and hype stuff that isn't true. IF the 30kWh batteries are degrading faster (and it's still an "if" at present), it's better to know that now and work on a solution. That may be battery replacement (which Nissan would probably resist - they've sold thousand of these cars) or it may be a software fix, or something else. Flip the Fleet is doing some excellent research and their being in favour of a particular outcome (improved uptake of EVs in NZ) doesn't mean they ignore inconvenient facts.

nzlemming

79 posts

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#2043775 25-Jun-2018 20:12

RUKI:

As for the 30 kWh batteries software "patch" - boys at Nissan overseas have already downloaded it. My position is simple: Nissan NZ have to sort that upgrade themselves. It is no different from any other automotive industry recalls IMO. You would not be changing Airbags, or faulty pumps, brakes, etc even if you could, right?

Gossip has it that currently Nissan NZ doesn't want to know because the imported cars didn't come through them. But as they're wholly owned by Nissan Japan, I think their arm has some twist in it, if we have facts to back up the claims.

afe66

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#2043784 25-Jun-2018 20:36

If Nisan nz wants to sell cars in the future here. ie 40kwH or future models they will have to step up from a pr point of view (at least).

Otherwise a lot of articles will appear with unhappy people complaining about poor service.

Realitically, how hard will this be ?

A number of laptops with appropriate plugs. Stagger the rollout over the country. Park car at dealership and update in car park.

Not like it needs hoists, mechanics uninstalling rusted parts etc.

Think of the good impression it would leave if they came round and did it in your driveway etc.

Linuxluver

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#2043903 26-Jun-2018 08:59

The patch for the 30kWh LEAFs has been downloaded here by EV Enhanced in Christchurch and they have flashed a test car. I'm told this is possible because EU law requires such patches to be made publicly available, so access to it is completely legal. Walter, at EV Enhanced has said that if Nissan locally don't step up, he'll make the patch available here (if no one else does).

I think Nissan will step up. There are almost a thousand 30kWh LEAFs on the road here and this is where Flip the Fleet did the testing that gave substance to the perception of rapid battery decline......a report that has had global impact. If Nissan can "fix" the cars here, then the issue will be addressed in information terms - globally - via FTF's further reporting on progress.

My own SoH varies quite a bit. It was 84.43% last week after 70,000km, but then I went on a bit of a road trip and drover 1200km across a few days - charging carefully and managing heat - and my SoH is now 88.42%. That's a whole kWh extra and after 71,250km.

As for the decline itself, I can see how one stored value with a small error in it could, programmatically, over time be magnified as the error accumulated. It would be interesting to do a complete reset and see if there is a lag in the re-adjustment afterward.......

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