Electric Vehicle Battery Failures: Nissan Leaf etc

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#2407384 27-Jan-2020 11:31

jonathan18:

tdgeek:

It does. I was looking at a cheap used EV recently, just to go to golf. I cant recall how many kms they had but it wasnt huge and the SOH were typically down to 90%. These would be earlier Leafs but not the earliest. Given that these would not have had much exposure to fast charging till recent times it seemed a big loss

@tdgeek: just wondering what do you mean by this?

Many of the Japanese-sourced (and no doubt UK-sourced) Leafs were no doubt charged using fast chargers in their home country...

As I mentioned recently on the Leaf thread, LeafSpy showed nearly all charges of our 2013 Leaf (and we were the first NZ owners) were done using a fast charger (and could well be a key reason why the SOH has dropped so much quicker and lower than my sister's Leaf which, despite considerably higher mileage, had in Japan been charged nearly always using a slow charger).

True, I forgot that NZ is mostly years behind other countries. As in fast charges been overseas for a long time, NZ more recent.

gzt

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#2407422 27-Jan-2020 11:48

frednz: It's also interesting to read this thread started by Matt Jackett about a $30,000 quote to replace the battery of his 2016 Nissan Leaf:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/NZEVOwners/permalink/2456286841305282/
In both cases, the vehicles were not NZ-new and had covered a lot of kilometres. But, it's interesting to see how Nissan dealt with this situation.

This second example you have provided is from a couple of days ago. This car has gone in to the dealer for inspection and the result could be anything in this case. Too early..

Obraik

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#2407426 27-Jan-2020 11:54

tdgeek:
True, I forgot that NZ is mostly years behind other countries. As in fast charges been overseas for a long time, NZ more recent.

I don't think the timeline has anything to do with it but rather the Japanese don't tend to have the facilities at their home (usually an apartment) to charge at home so they're forced to use public fast chargers.

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#2407435 27-Jan-2020 12:15

Obraik:
tdgeek:

True, I forgot that NZ is mostly years behind other countries. As in fast charges been overseas for a long time, NZ more recent.

I don't think the timeline has anything to do with it but rather the Japanese don't tend to have the facilities at their home (usually an apartment) to charge at home so they're forced to use public fast chargers.

Makes perfect sense. Thanks.

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#2407484 27-Jan-2020 12:36

so what's the best way to maximize life of battery? or is it all at the mercy of the car's software?

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#2407490 27-Jan-2020 12:50

Batman:

so what's the best way to maximize life of battery? or is it all at the mercy of the car's software?

few ways to do it and most cars software will assist with keeping the battery in an optimal state of charge, ie not 100% when being charged.

Obraik

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#2407494 27-Jan-2020 12:55

Batman:

so what's the best way to maximize life of battery? or is it all at the mercy of the car's software?

Get a car with active thermal management of its batteries.

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#2407498 27-Jan-2020 13:09

Batman: so what's the best way to maximize life of battery? or is it all at the mercy of the car's software?

Fast charging isn't really much of a problem in practice. My feeling on this one is avoid high average battery temperatures over long periods of time where possible. Active thermal management fixes this issue.

That said, this scenario isn't a concern for the average commuter.

zenourn

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#2407499 27-Jan-2020 13:13

Complete battery failures are rare but can happen.

With the Nissan Leaf the battery modules under the rear seats are stacked together tightly and prone to degradation from high temps. In NZ this is usually from trips with repeated fast charging. If it gets bad enough only option is to either accept the reduced range (will be predictable) or try to get a second-hand replacement battery pack. I'm not aware of any new Leaf battery pack being sold (or offered) for a reasonable price in NZ.

Single modules failing is less of a problem to fix as do have donor packs to use.

There is huge variation in the rate at which batteries degrade (see plots that I have just updated on https://flipthefleet.org/resources/benchmark-your-leaf-before-buying/ ). In general keeping battery temps 10-25'C and charge 20-80% helps to reduce capacity loss.

We have written a report for the government which covers a lot of the battery supply issues (will soon be made public):

Myall, D.J, Moller, H., Ivanov, D., Gentle, H., Barnett, J., Anderson, B., Parker, R., Jack, M., Love, D. (2019). Accelerating Electric Vehicle Uptake in New Zealand: an information gap analysis. Flip the Fleet Report No 4 (Comissioned report to Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment / Te Kaitiaki Taiao a Te Whare Pāremata).

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#2407518 27-Jan-2020 13:44

gzt:
frednz: It's also interesting to read this thread started by Matt Jackett about a $30,000 quote to replace the battery of his 2016 Nissan Leaf:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/NZEVOwners/permalink/2456286841305282/

In both cases, the vehicles were not NZ-new and had covered a lot of kilometres. But, it's interesting to see how Nissan dealt with this situation.

This second example you have provided is from a couple of days ago. This car has gone in to the dealer for inspection and the result could be anything in this case. Too early..

Yes, here's an extract from Matt's thread:

“Last year my 2016 Nissan Leaf stopped working which has been identified as a battery issue. Nissan are saying that it could cost up to $30,000 to fix and have the car in their garage. They will get back to me in a couple of weeks with the actual cost. They are also saying that they will not cover the repair or give me a courtesy car and they have had my car for nearly two months. I have full insurance with State ($25,000 car value) and they say they cannot cover the cost because it’s a “mechanical fault”. I can’t track down the person I purchased the car from.”

This posting raises a number of issues. For example, even if Matt could track down the person he purchased the car from, would this private seller have any legal obligation to help Matt? I don't think a private car seller has any obligation to remedy what happens to a vehicle after they have sold it?

As far as insurance goes, not a hope here, I don't think they cover battery degradation in any product?

And as far as asking Nissan whether they will cover the repair of a Japanese imported Leaf, this is also not going to work.

If the Leaf had been bought from a dealer, in what circumstances could the dealer be liable for replacing a battery? When does the new car battery warranty apply? Does it only apply if the car was bought as NZ-new and the balance of this warranty was available to the purchaser? Can a battery warranty be available for a Leaf imported from Japan? I don't think Nissan NZ would cover this?

And when an "unofficial" NZ third party provides a replacement battery for a Leaf, what sort of warranty is available for this? Again, Nissan NZ wouldn't be interested in helping if an "unofficial" replacement battery failed. In fact, Nissan NZ has previously suggested that having unofficial NZ third parties update Nissan Leaf software could be a dangerous practice and they warned against it.

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#2407528 27-Jan-2020 13:57

frednz:

If the Leaf had been bought from a dealer, in what circumstances could the dealer be liable for replacing a battery? When does the new car battery warranty apply? Does it only apply if the car was bought as NZ-new and the balance of this warranty was available to the purchaser?

I am not a lawyer, but as far as I am aware the new car battery warranty only applies in the source country and it is the consumer guarantees act which applies when purchased from a second-hand dealer. Hence the CGA gives you that the battery is of acceptable quality and is fit for a particular purpose that you asked about. A complete failure of the battery within a few years would likely not meet the definition of acceptable quality, although what is an acceptable level of battery decay is a lot more murky. I have in a few cases been requested to compare the decay of a particular car's battery to the overall population of cars when people are taking cases to the dispute tribunal.

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#2407536 27-Jan-2020 14:06

zenourn:

frednz:

If the Leaf had been bought from a dealer, in what circumstances could the dealer be liable for replacing a battery? When does the new car battery warranty apply? Does it only apply if the car was bought as NZ-new and the balance of this warranty was available to the purchaser?

I am not a lawyer, but as far as I am aware the new car battery warranty only applies in the source country and it is the consumer guarantees act which applies when purchased from a second-hand dealer. Hence the CGA gives you that the battery is of acceptable quality and is fit for a particular purpose that you asked about. A complete failure of the battery within a few years would likely not meet the definition of acceptable quality, although what is an acceptable level of battery decay is a lot more murky. I have in a few cases been requested to compare the decay of a particular car's battery to the overall population of cars when people are taking cases to the dispute tribunal.

In Matt's case quoted above, his Nissan Leaf is a 2016 model, so you would think that a battery would last 3 or 4 years without needing to be replaced, even if the EV had done a large number of kilometres. But, because he bought from a private seller who he can't track down, the Consumer Guarantees Act isn't any good. But, even if he knew who the private seller was, could he force the seller to go back to the dealer from which the car was bought?

This raises the issue of how many kilometres can you expect a Nissan Leaf to travel before battery problems are likely to arise? I think the number of fast charges you have done may have quite a bit to do with the answer to this question.

zenourn

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#2407544 27-Jan-2020 14:38

frednz:

In Matt's case quoted above, his Nissan Leaf is a 2016 model, so you would think that a battery would last 3 or 4 years without needing to be replaced, even if the EV had done a large number of kilometres. But, because he bought from a private seller who he can't track down, the Consumer Guarantees Act isn't any good. But, even if he knew who the private seller was, could he force the seller to go back to the dealer from which the car was bought?

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand the CGA benefits (from the retailer or manufacturer) only apply when sold via a business. So once the car was sold privately the CGA benefits disappear and even if the private stellar could be found and was willing to help I don't think the dealer would have any legal obligation to fix anything. With cars it is well recorded that the item has changed legal ownership.

Not a great situation, but is how the system currently works with private sales of grey imports.

[edited: fix error]

clive100

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#2407588 27-Jan-2020 15:18

zenourn:

frednz:

In Matt's case quoted above, his Nissan Leaf is a 2016 model, so you would think that a battery would last 3 or 4 years without needing to be replaced, even if the EV had done a large number of kilometres. But, because he bought from a private seller who he can't track down, the Consumer Guarantees Act isn't any good. But, even if he knew who the private seller was, could he force the seller to go back to the dealer from which the car was bought?

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand the CGA benefits (from the retailer or manufacturer) only apply when sold via a business. So once the car was sold privately the CGA benefits disappear and even if the private stellar could be found and was willing to help I don't think the dealer would have any legal obligation to fix anything. With cars it is well recorded that the item has changed legal ownership.

Not a great situation, but is how the system currently works with private sales of grey imports.

[edited: fix error]

afe66

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#2407595 27-Jan-2020 15:37

I found the data plot of the battery SOH vrs time very interesting and reassuring.

Looks like probably 1000s of data points showing there isn't an issue with lots of batteries failing.

Any mechanical thing will have a freak failure.

Reminds me of a friends petrol Hyundai bought new then had a complete engine failure and he ended up talking to CEO of hyundai nz who fixed it after local dealer wasnt interested..

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