Electric Vehicle Battery Failures: Nissan Leaf etc

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frednz

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#265537 26-Jan-2020 15:35

Steve Withers explains what happened to his Nissan Leaf:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/655827161203344?view=permalink&id=2606646929454681

It's also interesting to read this thread started by Matt Jackett about a $30,000 quote to replace the battery of his 2016 Nissan Leaf:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/NZEVOwners/permalink/2456286841305282/

In both cases, the vehicles were not NZ-new and had covered a lot of kilometres. But, it's interesting to see how Nissan dealt with this situation. I know that you have to pay a lot extra to get an NZ-New EV, but at least you can go straight back to the dealer for support. For example, there can be problems when you purchase a second-hand vehicle from someone on TradeMe, but even when you purchase a second-hand Japanese import from a dealer, it's not really as good as buying NZ-New (IMHO) as I think a manufacturer's guarantee will normally guarantee the battery for a certain period / number of kilometres?

So, when working out the costs of owning an EV, the eventual failure of the battery may need to be taken into account if you do not upgrade your EVs regularly. So, if possible, do you think it may be a good idea to always trade-up your EV long before battery failure becomes a distinct possibility? And perhaps these stories show that purchasing a cheap EV that has done a lot of kilometres may not always be a good idea.

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#2407044 26-Jan-2020 16:29

Firstly the battery doesn’t just “fail” it degrades, and some cells degrade more than others.

Blue cars will swap a failing cell/pack for about $2,500

frednz

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#2407051 26-Jan-2020 16:59

PhantomNVD: Firstly the battery doesn’t just “fail” it degrades, and some cells degrade more than others.

Blue cars will swap a failing cell/pack for about $2,500

Fair enough if you can get away with replacing just a few cells, but in Steve's case, he said it would cost just under $11,000 to replace the whole battery as most of the cells were showing similar developing weakness. And it seems that $11,000 would be the least you could expect to pay to replace the whole battery, as in the other case referred to above, Nissan quoted $30,000.

Sure, a battery doesn't usually just "fail" overnight, but after it degrades to a certain point this leads to the ultimate "failure" of the battery to operate the vehicle!

afe66

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#2407154 26-Jan-2020 19:22

Having heard the nightmare stories of others who imported second hand petrol european cars, I'll take the EV risk

Obraik

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#2407176 26-Jan-2020 21:10

Let's not equate the experience with a Leaf to all EVs. The Leaf does not have an actively cooled pack, so it's at the mercy the ambient temperatures and heating up from fast charging. Even the new Leaf's don't have this.

Most modern EVs like those from Tesla, Hyundai, Kia, Audi, etc etc all have liquid cooled and heated batteries to keep them at the optimal temperatures in all conditions. There are a number of Tesla's in the US and Europe that have been used as Taxis with 500k+km's while also charging mostly on Superchargers yet their battery packs still have over 90% of the batteries original capacity available. For these cars, it's unlikely you'll need to replace the battery for the life of the car

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freitasm

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#2407226 26-Jan-2020 21:48

frednz: Steve Withers explains what happened to his Nissan Leaf:

You mean @Linuxluver?

frednz

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#2407229 26-Jan-2020 21:56

Obraik:

Let's not equate the experience with a Leaf to all EVs. The Leaf does not have an actively cooled pack, so it's at the mercy the ambient temperatures and heating up from fast charging. Even the new Leaf's don't have this.

Most modern EVs like those from Tesla, Hyundai, Kia, Audi, etc etc all have liquid cooled and heated batteries to keep them at the optimal temperatures in all conditions. There are a number of Tesla's in the US and Europe that have been used as Taxis with 500k+km's while also charging mostly on Superchargers yet their battery packs still have over 90% of the batteries original capacity available. For these cars, it's unlikely you'll need to replace the battery for the life of the car

The problem here is that, for many people, a used Nissan Leaf is the only practical alternative for owning an EV because the prices of the liquid cooled battery EVs you refer to, start at around $70,000 for new ones and used ones aren't much cheaper yet either.

I think that quite a large proportion of EVs in NZ are second-hand Leafs, most of which are going just fine and are doing a really good job to help us reduce emissions. But, people who are new to the EV market and who can only afford up to, say, $25,000 for an EV, can't buy a Tesla, Hyundai, Kia, Audi etc so they have to settle for a used Nissan Leaf, which doesn't have any real support from Nissan NZ.

So, as long as people who are new to the market and who can only afford a Leaf are fully aware of the experiences of people, such as those quoted above, then that's fine and if their EV eventually needs to have the battery replaced they won't be too surprised. But, rather than wait until an EV needs a replacement battery, I think the trick is to sell before this happens and buy a newer model.

In any event, all batteries degrade over time, and that's why I would always buy a new EV in preference to a used one.

frednz

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#2407230 26-Jan-2020 21:59

freitasm:

frednz: Steve Withers explains what happened to his Nissan Leaf:

You mean @Linuxluver?

Well, on FB (like most others) he uses his real name, which is Steve Withers, but I have an idea that on Geekzone, Steve may well be known as "Linuxluver"!

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#2407232 26-Jan-2020 22:01

frednz:

freitasm:

frednz: Steve Withers explains what happened to his Nissan Leaf:

You mean @Linuxluver?

Well, on FB (like most others) he uses his real name, which is Steve Withers, but I have an idea that on Geekzone, Steve may well be known as "Linuxluver"!

Visit the profile linked from the @ mention and you will see he uses his name here too.

Obraik

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#2407250 26-Jan-2020 22:19

frednz:

The problem here is that, for many people, a used Nissan Leaf is the only practical alternative for owning an EV because the prices of the liquid cooled battery EVs you refer to, start at around $70,000 for new ones and used ones aren't much cheaper yet either.

I think that quite a large proportion of EVs in NZ are second-hand Leafs, most of which are going just fine and are doing a really good job to help us reduce emissions. But, people who are new to the EV market and who can only afford up to, say, $25,000 for an EV, can't buy a Tesla, Hyundai, Kia, Audi etc so they have to settle for a used Nissan Leaf, which doesn't have any real support from Nissan NZ.

So, as long as people who are new to the market and who can only afford a Leaf are fully aware of the experiences of people, such as those quoted above, then that's fine and if their EV eventually needs to have the battery replaced they won't be too surprised. But, rather than wait until an EV needs a replacement battery, I think the trick is to sell before this happens and buy a newer model.

In any event, all batteries degrade over time, and that's why I would always buy a new EV in preference to a used one.

An EV is still a car, and like all cars they're not all made the same or to the same quality. Anyone buying a used car should be doing their research to make sure they're aware of the shortcomings of the model(s) they're looking at.

I don't think it's likely anyone buying a used Leaf (or any Leaf) is going to be considering replacing its battery once it degrades to a point that it doesn't have the range they need for their daily commute. They're either going to trade up. In a few years the Kona's and Kia's are going to be entering the second hand market and I think the second hand Leaf market will collapse.

Yes, all batteries degrade over time, just like all components in an ICE do too. However, based on the examples we're already seeing I don't see the likes of Tesla's degrading to nothingness anytime soon.

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frednz

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#2407253 26-Jan-2020 22:31

Obraik:

I don't think it's likely anyone buying a used Leaf (or any Leaf) is going to be considering replacing its battery once it degrades to a point that it doesn't have the range they need for their daily commute. They're either going to trade up.

Well, if you can get a brand new Leaf battery for around $11,000, I suppose this turns it into "almost" a new car again, which some people may think is well worth the money. But, if you want to have the peace of mind of having Nissan NZ supply you with a new Leaf battery, then it was mentioned on FB (in the thread quoted here earlier) that this would cost $30,000.

That does sound excessive, but for a 64kWh EV battery, such as in the Hyundai Kona, I've been told that their new batteries cost nearly $40,000, so the new price of $78,000 for the entry level Kona is quite "reasonable"!

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#2407288 27-Jan-2020 07:03

Obraik:

Let's not equate the experience with a Leaf to all EVs. The Leaf does not have an actively cooled pack, so it's at the mercy the ambient temperatures and heating up from fast charging. Even the new Leaf's don't have this.

Most modern EVs like those from Tesla, Hyundai, Kia, Audi, etc etc all have liquid cooled and heated batteries to keep them at the optimal temperatures in all conditions. There are a number of Tesla's in the US and Europe that have been used as Taxis with 500k+km's while also charging mostly on Superchargers yet their battery packs still have over 90% of the batteries original capacity available. For these cars, it's unlikely you'll need to replace the battery for the life of the car

any references to these? that sounds pretty amazing

gzt

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#2407294 27-Jan-2020 07:30

frednz: Steve Withers explains what happened to his Nissan Leaf:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/655827161203344?view=permalink&id=2606646929454681

In this case the owner chose to restore a 100Kkm pack to almost new condition. In contrast an average second hand car owner would choose to repair the pack to normal working condition for those Kms at less than a quarter of the $11K above. Linuxluver will tell you the exact price soon I'm sure ; ).

tdgeek

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#2407331 27-Jan-2020 09:04

Batman:

Obraik:

Let's not equate the experience with a Leaf to all EVs. The Leaf does not have an actively cooled pack, so it's at the mercy the ambient temperatures and heating up from fast charging. Even the new Leaf's don't have this.

Most modern EVs like those from Tesla, Hyundai, Kia, Audi, etc etc all have liquid cooled and heated batteries to keep them at the optimal temperatures in all conditions. There are a number of Tesla's in the US and Europe that have been used as Taxis with 500k+km's while also charging mostly on Superchargers yet their battery packs still have over 90% of the batteries original capacity available. For these cars, it's unlikely you'll need to replace the battery for the life of the car

any references to these? that sounds pretty amazing

It does. I was looking at a cheap used EV recently, just to go to golf. I cant recall how many kms they had but it wasnt huge and the SOH were typically down to 90%. These would be earlier Leafs but not the earliest. Given that these would not have had much exposure to fast charging till recent times it seemed a big loss

driller2000

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#2407364 27-Jan-2020 10:16

Batman:

Obraik:

Let's not equate the experience with a Leaf to all EVs. The Leaf does not have an actively cooled pack, so it's at the mercy the ambient temperatures and heating up from fast charging. Even the new Leaf's don't have this.

Most modern EVs like those from Tesla, Hyundai, Kia, Audi, etc etc all have liquid cooled and heated batteries to keep them at the optimal temperatures in all conditions. There are a number of Tesla's in the US and Europe that have been used as Taxis with 500k+km's while also charging mostly on Superchargers yet their battery packs still have over 90% of the batteries original capacity available. For these cars, it's unlikely you'll need to replace the battery for the life of the car

any references to these? that sounds pretty amazing

These links seem to support the above statement:

https://qz.com/1737145/the-economics-of-driving-seven-teslas-for-2-5-million-miles/

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-400k-km-250k-mi-7-percent-battery-degradation/

jonathan18

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#2407382 27-Jan-2020 11:26

tdgeek:

It does. I was looking at a cheap used EV recently, just to go to golf. I cant recall how many kms they had but it wasnt huge and the SOH were typically down to 90%. These would be earlier Leafs but not the earliest. Given that these would not have had much exposure to fast charging till recent times it seemed a big loss

@tdgeek: just wondering what do you mean by this?

Many of the Japanese-sourced (and no doubt UK-sourced) Leafs were no doubt charged using fast chargers in their home country...

As I mentioned recently on the Leaf thread, LeafSpy showed nearly all charges of our 2013 Leaf (and we were the first NZ owners) were done using a fast charger (and could well be a key reason why the SOH has dropped so much quicker and lower than my sister's Leaf which, despite considerably higher mileage, had in Japan been charged nearly always using a slow charger).

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