RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

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#3183193 17-Jan-2024 18:25

MikeB4:

We purchased a PHEV with a desire to be as electrified as possible but still giving certainty. My disabilities mean that it is vital to my wellbeing that the vehicle is available 100% and a PHEV met that criteria. Approximately +/-70% of the time the vehicle is running on pure EV. With the new charges I will be paying RUCs+GST+excise on the Petrol. RUCs +GST on the electricity along with Insurance +GST, Registration and WOF+GST.

I can reduce the costs considerably by dropping the PHEV and buying a pure ICE vehicle. The government has by actions told us we don't need to care about the planet.

Have you really done the numbers?

I just did some very quick calculations on the taxes that would be collected using your estimate of 70% pure EV use.

I reckon the ballpark L/100 km on average is about 10L/100 km considering most driving for the average person is stop start around town.

I used an average yearly km's of 15,000, $0.77/litre tax, $0.76 RUC for BEV and $0.53 RUC for a PHEV.

My calculations came out as follows;

PHEV $1141.50 (based on 70% pure EV use)
BEV $1140.00
ICE $1155.00

Contrary to what you claim, so far as tax goes you don't save anything by driving an ICE when comparing a like for like vehicle. Get your pure EV use up to 85 to 90% and you see 20% plus savings in taxes over both the ICE and BEV.

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Senecio

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#3183194 17-Jan-2024 18:29

This whole notion that Taxes need to be fair needs to stop. By definition Taxes are a redistribution of wealth, therefore they should not be fair. Those who have the means to pay more should pay more to provide services and infrastucture for everyone to use including those that don't have the means to contribute as much. That's just how taxes work.

There's really no need to create a user pays system to fund any particular public infrastructure. Far easier to just increase the taxes from income, expenditure and wealth creation (Capital Gains) to cover all public infrastucture and services required.

What's next, a library tax so that only those who read and borrow books pay for the public libraries? Why is roading so special that we need to create a user pays tax to fund it? Even if you don't own a car you still benefit from the roading system as goods and services are delivered to your door.

Technofreak

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#3183196 17-Jan-2024 18:30

gzt:
Technofreak: However if people are buying a PHEV where the use case is they often exceed the battery range then I'd suggest they've bought a vehicle with the wrong type of energy source.

A major reason for purchase of later model PHEV - it gives you a full electric vehicle without so-called range anxiety because you have petrol power on standby.Typically if you want that it's because you regularly break out and drive longer distances some days. Not a problem. Except, as discussed now because you'll be paying double ruc.

No you're not paying double. You're getting a discount, paying $0.53 instead of $0.76. You pay a top up if you do any ICE driving.

If you do anything more than around 70% of pure EV driving you're ahead of both a BEV and an ICE.

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mudguard

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#3183198 17-Jan-2024 18:33

Dingbatt:

The Camry Hybrid the Model 3 replaced did 5.2l/100km year in, year out. So at the current local petrol price* ($2.54) that equates to 13.2c/km, of which 4.4c/km is “road tax”.

What it really brings home to me is how much owners of small, frugal diesel cars have been getting ripped off by RUCs compared to petrol cars.

I should do my 2023 numbers now that it's finished. In 2022 my Corolla total cost was 26c per km, petrol was 15c of that. Diesels needed to be better than 1L/100K of the petrol equivalent to beat RUCS. Of course that went out the window when the diesel price sky rocketed.

SaltyNZ

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#3183206 17-Jan-2024 19:12

Senecio:

Those who have the means to pay more should pay more to provide services and infrastucture for everyone to use including those that don't have the means to contribute as much. That's just how taxes work.

Yes, that's true, but a road user tax is not designed to be costlier to those who can better afford it. In its current form, it's not just not fair, it's not fair for no reason. It used to be not fair because the government wanted to encourage the use of vehicles with a lower environmental footprint - and everyone who bought one, including me, knew that that was going to end in April 2024. But it is reasonable to expect that we when they are redoing the system - especially since they asked for submissions nearly two years ago! - they would make it not fair in a rational way. As opposed to not fair because they shrugged and said 'Yeah, whatever.'

Related, although this government is not responsible for the exemption ending or the form the RUCs are going to take, it's hardly a stretch to imagine that they're quite happy with EV & PHEV owners being a bit pissed off about it, given literally everything else in their coalition manifesto.

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tdgeek

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#3183239 17-Jan-2024 20:05

Senecio:

This whole notion that Taxes need to be fair needs to stop. By definition Taxes are a redistribution of wealth, therefore they should not be fair. Those who have the means to pay more should pay more to provide services and infrastucture for everyone to use including those that don't have the means to contribute as much. That's just how taxes work.

There's really no need to create a user pays system to fund any particular public infrastructure. Far easier to just increase the taxes from income, expenditure and wealth creation (Capital Gains) to cover all public infrastucture and services required.

What's next, a library tax so that only those who read and borrow books pay for the public libraries? Why is roading so special that we need to create a user pays tax to fund it? Even if you don't own a car you still benefit from the roading system as goods and services are delivered to your door.

100% agree. If I was old and grey in a nursing home, many goods I receive are carried to me via road. (or diesel rail)

It does need a re think. You can migrate all of this to electric or H2 (pros and cons apply to both) but it needs a dedicated and I mean dedicated not vote buying response by Central Government. But, they are determined by votes, and as water runs to the lowest point, so do votes. IAAM (Its all about me)

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#3183240 17-Jan-2024 20:07

Technofreak:

gzt:
Technofreak: However if people are buying a PHEV where the use case is they often exceed the battery range then I'd suggest they've bought a vehicle with the wrong type of energy source.

A major reason for purchase of later model PHEV - it gives you a full electric vehicle without so-called range anxiety because you have petrol power on standby.Typically if you want that it's because you regularly break out and drive longer distances some days. Not a problem. Except, as discussed now because you'll be paying double ruc.

No you're not paying double. You're getting a discount, paying $0.53 instead of $0.76. You pay a top up if you do any ICE driving.

If you do anything more than around 70% or pure EV driving you're ahead of both a BEV and an ICE.

Agree. You pay ICE tax or you dont. The mileage is one and the other, you dont pay twice.

johno1234

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#3183244 17-Jan-2024 20:14

Senecio:
This whole notion that Taxes need to be fair needs to stop. By definition Taxes are a redistribution of wealth, therefore they should not be fair. Those who have the means to pay more should pay more to provide services and infrastucture for everyone to use including those that don't have the means to contribute as much. That's just how taxes work.

There's really no need to create a user pays system to fund any particular public infrastructure. Far easier to just increase the taxes from income, expenditure and wealth creation (Capital Gains) to cover all public infrastucture and services required.

What's next, a library tax so that only those who read and borrow books pay for the public libraries? Why is roading so special that we need to create a user pays tax to fund it? Even if you don't own a car you still benefit from the roading system as goods and services are delivered to your door.

RUC is not general taxation. It is a levy, ring fenced to a specific purpose.

tdgeek

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#3183247 17-Jan-2024 20:27

mudguard:

Dingbatt:

The Camry Hybrid the Model 3 replaced did 5.2l/100km year in, year out. So at the current local petrol price* ($2.54) that equates to 13.2c/km, of which 4.4c/km is “road tax”.

What it really brings home to me is how much owners of small, frugal diesel cars have been getting ripped off by RUCs compared to petrol cars.

I should do my 2023 numbers now that it's finished. In 2022 my Corolla total cost was 26c per km, petrol was 15c of that. Diesels needed to be better than 1L/100K of the petrol equivalent to beat RUCS. Of course that went out the window when the diesel price sky rocketed.

I don't want to be "that guy",but when electric cars was a thing it was all about being green. @Linuxluver if I recall started this all off. There are many reasons to go electric vehicle (or anything else) electric. But oddly this thread seems to be almost all about running costs?? Running costs obviously matter, but end of the day, no matter how you cut it, RUC is ROAD USER charges. Not running costs. Its no good to have a flat fee, obviously. Its no good to send the RUC to income tax.It needs to be User Pays, which ironically is a nationwide flat fee (i.e. income tax) as all access goods that are transported to us, in some form. It will never be 90%+ fair. As we run 850cc cars and 8 litre cars. Or teeny EV's or SUV EV's.

I would favour all vehicles whether powered by petrol, diesel, H2, Lithium or air, have RUC. But we can't go down the track of tech. GPS this, App that. ICE can pay a GST like RUC at the pump. EV/PHEV pay online, at a Post Shop, it HAS to be simple as the general populous don't equate to Geekzone members.

tdgeek

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#3183250 17-Jan-2024 20:35

johno1234:

RUC is not general taxation. It is a levy, ring fenced to a specific purpose.

Agree, but how many items in a house or business use fuel to get there? Whether its broccoli, carpet or a plant pot, they all do. While not saying thats the answer its part of it. There is some argument that RUC is spread across consumer goods/services. Or JUST business road use, which will transfer to the consumer anyway.

Obraik

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#3183252 17-Jan-2024 20:51

As an EV owner, I have no issue paying RUC. What I do have issue with is that I will now be paying more RUC than nearly all hybrids and other more efficient petrol vehicles. Using the current Corolla hatch as an example with an efficiency of 4.4L/100km, their RUC equivalent cost per km is 3c, whereas I with an EV that emits no emissions pays 7.6c/km. If the current government did truly believe this move was about fairness and equity as their press release states, then they would have made this change when they had done the work to move all vehicles to RUC and removed that component from fuel.

With the current fuel prices today my total per km will still be less in an EV (1c/km for power + 7.6c/km for RUC) but that doesn't negate the above.

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ezbee

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#3183254 17-Jan-2024 20:53

Auckland Business Chamber CEO Simon Bridges in hospital with broken wrist after e-scooter accident
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/506958/auckland-business-chamber-ceo-simon-bridges-in-hospital-with-broken-wrist-after-e-scooter-accident

While we are at it with user pays maybe e-scooters should be paying RUC for ACC medical and hospital costs?

gzt

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#3183255 17-Jan-2024 21:02

technofreak: I reckon the ballpark L/100 km on average is about 10L/100 km considering most driving for the average person is stop start around town.

Way too high. Most cars in NZ similar in size to the current electric generation are around 7L/100km with quite a few lower these days.

Anyway, let's get some figures instead of competing our guesses ; )

HarmLessSolutions

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#3183257 17-Jan-2024 21:06

ezbee:

Auckland Business Chamber CEO Simon Bridges in hospital with broken wrist after e-scooter accident
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/506958/auckland-business-chamber-ceo-simon-bridges-in-hospital-with-broken-wrist-after-e-scooter-accident

While we are at it with user pays maybe e-scooters should be paying RUC for ACC medical and hospital costs?

ACC levies and RUCs are completely different charges for different purposes. ACC is split between petrol price and registration for motor vehicles. Diesel has no ACC component which is why their rego is significantly dearer.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

tdgeek

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#3183273 17-Jan-2024 22:36

Obraik:

As an EV owner, I have no issue paying RUC. What I do have issue with is that I will now be paying more RUC than nearly all hybrids and other more efficient petrol vehicles. Using the current Corolla hatch as an example with an efficiency of 4.4L/100km, their RUC equivalent cost per km is 3c, whereas I with an EV that emits no emissions pays 7.6c/km. If the current government did truly believe this move was about fairness and equity as their press release states, then they would have made this change when they had done the work to move all vehicles to RUC and removed that component from fuel.

With the current fuel prices today my total per km will still be less in an EV (1c/km for power + 7.6c/km for RUC) but that doesn't negate the above.

I get that. The issue IMO is that you have ICE cars that are very economical, up to V8's. EV's that are small and cheap to run to EV's that are bigger. Small hybrids to bigger hybrids, that are plug in or not. Quite a range of variables. They took some form of average, which "would" be the average but on that, most vehicles will fall outside the average. The only solution is RUC for all vehicles. If they run on electrons, oil or whatever, that is the only option. And it needs to be simple. IMO rego is simple, WOF is simple. It cannot be that hard as long as you cater for the IT literate crowd, AND the many that are not. Ive lost count how many new complicated things are now commonplace, RUC is just another that can be made part of regular life

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