Why is driver training being ignored? Aw

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Why is driver training being ignored? Aw

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | ... | 13

2394 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2287
Inactive user

#2154275 4-Jan-2019 11:56

Again, you might be law abiding but it doesn't mean it's a sensible thing to drive as an inexperienced driver against one's normal circadian rhythm and carrying a group of young and (likely) immature males late in the morning. No one is disputing that as a matter of law people can do whatever the law allows them to -- all that I am calling out is that, heavens forbid, perhaps the adults involved can (for example) come in and offer a certain degree of realism to their own kids and encourage them to wrap things up at 1am instead of 4? This would be far more constructive than everyone feigning surprise when a few teens die after the driver wraps their car around a tree through either speeding or just misjudging the conditions/fatigue?

Oh and you know what is funny? It is considered an aggravating factor that someone was driving late in the morning and likely fatigued should the terrible crash happen and someone gets seriously injured or killed. Prosecutors, once the elements of the charges are proven, are not required to prove aggravating factors in sentencing beyond reasonable doubt and judges are entitled to draw reasonable inferences. But you being the expert about the courts, you'd already know this, right?

Coil

6614 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2153
Inactive user

#2154276 4-Jan-2019 11:59

dejadeadnz:

Again, you might be law abiding but it doesn't mean it's a sensible thing to drive as an inexperienced driver against one's normal circadian rhythm and carrying a group of young and (likely) immature males late in the morning.

So truck drivers and their companies who operate rotating roasters around the 24 hour clock are not sensible and immature?
Just get off of it, You are beating a horse so bloody dead and irrelevant it is laughable.
On new years day after a 2 day festival and no sleep I drove home at 6AM, sure I was fatigued and tired. But I made it. Why were the police letting people out of the car park if they are all irresponsible/fatigued/outside their circadian rhythm/what ever else you can come up with?

I am sure if we banned people from operating vehicles, put foam padding around everything in existence, we would have less road deaths too!
If we banned spoons people wouldn't get fat as fast!

TinyTim

1058 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 167

Trusted

#2154279 4-Jan-2019 12:02

afe66: Also because every nz driver considers themselves to be a better than average driver they dont see why they should do courses. The other drivers on the other hand...

I suspect everybody has a different idea as to what makes a better-than-average driver, and they choose a definition that suits them. Is it one who never breaks any of the road rules - never rolls through a stop sign, never goes over the speed limit and never crosses the centre line? Or one who drives conservatively, never drives above 85 and has never had an accident? Or is it one who has a special affinity with their automobile and can drive fast times on track day? Or is it someone who never gets distracted and always drives defensively, or has superfast reaction times and can anticipate problems?

How should we measure how good a driver is?

(I quite like dejadeadnz's concept of the 'ethical' driver.)

dejadeadnz

2394 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2287
Inactive user

#2154280 4-Jan-2019 12:07

Coil:

So truck drivers and their companies who operate rotating roasters around the 24 hour clock are not sensible and immature?
Just get off of it, You are beating a horse so bloody dead and irrelevant it is laughable.

Here's the difference, since you again just appear to lack the requisite capacity to draw relevant distinctions. Professional drivers are required to keep logs of their hours, it's an offence to falsify logbooks or for an employer to compel a driver to drive beyond allowable hours, and professional drivers typically have a much higher level of experience and training as opposed to a 15 year old.

Finally, professional drivers working shifts should, in theory, have better adjusted circadian rhythms. There are serious concerns around whether professional drivers and commercial vehicles are being properly regulated by the MoT, Police and NZTA respectively. But there's simply no sensible argument to be had that, under a properly working system, the risks produced by commercial and experienced drivers driving at night (for good reasons such of minimising the movement of large vehicles on crowded road to reduce the risk to others) is the same as some 15 year old who decides that he needs to be out at 4am "just because".

When you try and have a debate with someone, it pays not to launch into arguments ad absurdum. Look that up if you don't know what that means.

MikeB4

MikeB4
18775 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 12766

ID Verified

Trusted

Subscriber

#2154376 4-Jan-2019 13:44

My simplistic view for improving NewZealands shocking road behavior is....

The roads are not play grounds, the vehicles are not toys and the rules are not optional. I feel if those three simple notions we're followed things would be a lot different.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

dejadeadnz

2394 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2287
Inactive user

#2154378 4-Jan-2019 13:53

MikeB4: My simplistic view for improving NewZealands shocking road behavior is....

The roads are not play grounds, the vehicles are not toys and the rules are not optional. I feel if those three simple notions we're followed things would be a lot different.

I’d add two other things: don’t be an aggressive jerk and getting to your destination a few minutes early isn’t worth dying.

HP

Shop now for HP laptops and other devices (affiliate link).

Coil

6614 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2153
Inactive user

#2154410 4-Jan-2019 14:46

dejadeadnz:

Coil:

So truck drivers and their companies who operate rotating roasters around the 24 hour clock are not sensible and immature?
Just get off of it, You are beating a horse so bloody dead and irrelevant it is laughable.

Here's the difference, since you again just appear to lack the requisite capacity to draw relevant distinctions. Professional drivers are required to keep logs of their hours, it's an offence to falsify logbooks or for an employer to compel a driver to drive beyond allowable hours, and professional drivers typically have a much higher level of experience and training as opposed to a 15 year old.

Finally, professional drivers working shifts should, in theory, have better adjusted circadian rhythms. There are serious concerns around whether professional drivers and commercial vehicles are being properly regulated by the MoT, Police and NZTA respectively. But there's simply no sensible argument to be had that, under a properly working system, the risks produced by commercial and experienced drivers driving at night (for good reasons such of minimising the movement of large vehicles on crowded road to reduce the risk to others) is the same as some 15 year old who decides that he needs to be out at 4am "just because".

When you try and have a debate with someone, it pays not to launch into arguments ad absurdum. Look that up if you don't know what that means.

I work for a company that enforces commercial vehicle compliance. I understand how it works.. I also talk to the drivers who use these products and also know the actual real world effects of more harsh driver regulation. I have truck drivers who are on rotating shifts and on electronic logbooks. They have to work schedules that they knowingly work tired/fatigued as the electronic system forces them to. If they don't follow, they get fired. The older systems when a human managed it there were less issues with fatigue and people could manage that themselves.

A 15 year old is a huge difference between a young 20 year old you were stabbing at before. I also would not expect much from a 15 year old me behind the wheel at 4 AM either. Keep your facts the same.

The person out at 4AM has equal right to do that as you do dive on the road to play golf on a Sunday. They are entitled to leisure and freedom and some peoples vision of that may differ from yours while they still hold personal integrity and are not delinquent. Chances are this person is out frequently at that time and your special word for body clock adjusts to that and they are fine. Maybe you going and playing golf half hung over on a Sunday from the night before is a greater risk?

Anyway, humans will be human and humans make human error, as you said yourself "under a properly working system". What is a properly working system? From what I gather from you its a nanny state with archaic curfews and population control. Might as well live under the oppressed ruling of someone.

MikeB4

MikeB4
18775 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 12766

ID Verified

Trusted

Subscriber

#2154413 4-Jan-2019 14:54

dejadeadnz:
MikeB4: My simplistic view for improving NewZealands shocking road behavior is....

The roads are not play grounds, the vehicles are not toys and the rules are not optional. I feel if those three simple notions we're followed things would be a lot different.

I’d add two other things: don’t be an aggressive jerk and getting to your destination a few minutes early isn’t worth dying.

Yes. They seem to use their cars as weapons. My wife believes they are compensating for tiny gentlemen bits.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

JimmyH

2898 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1554

#2154418 4-Jan-2019 15:05

dejadeadnz:

But you being the expert about the courts, you'd already know this, right?

You are continuing to make stuff up out of thin air. Where, at any point, did I claim to be an expert on courts?

In point of fact I do have some legal training, and have been in court (for the Crown as part of Crown teams on commercial/constitutional stuff many, many years ago), and have had a hand in drafting some bits legislation. But I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, an expert on either courts or criminal law.

This discussion is getting silly. I'm out.

Dratsab

3964 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1728

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2154525 4-Jan-2019 18:17

JimmyH: Since you state you were a Police prosecutor...

No, he simply said prosecutor. Pedantic I know, but words are important.

My 2c is that there's a vast set of people in this country who believe they have a right to everything (self entitlement) which is backed up by lax enforcement and pathetically weak (liberal) legal system. I say 'legal' as I am entirely unconvinced we have a justice system.

A good example of this is a conversation I had with a lady at the gym this morning. She said she was in a stationery line of traffic and had left a bit of space between herself and the car in front, as per her defensive driving training. A 4WD vehicle nosed it's way into this space and the driver, who'd come from the other side of the road, wound her window down and let loose with a stream of invective and accused my acquaintance with trying to block her from getting into the stream of traffic.

Another major issue is the belief most people have that everything is someone else's fault. This belief is magnified by idiots in the media with seemingly innocuous, and constant, statements about things like 'police pursuits' which reinforces in the minds of many that any resultant crashes/fatalities are not the fault of the offender. In such cases 'fleeing drivers' is a much more appropriate statement which anchors blame firmly where it should be. All of which, of course, comes back to the last three words of my second sentence.

Geektastic

18009 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 8465

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2154639 4-Jan-2019 22:03

TinyTim:
afe66: Also because every nz driver considers themselves to be a better than average driver they dont see why they should do courses. The other drivers on the other hand...

I suspect everybody has a different idea as to what makes a better-than-average driver, and they choose a definition that suits them. Is it one who never breaks any of the road rules - never rolls through a stop sign, never goes over the speed limit and never crosses the centre line? Or one who drives conservatively, never drives above 85 and has never had an accident? Or is it one who has a special affinity with their automobile and can drive fast times on track day? Or is it someone who never gets distracted and always drives defensively, or has superfast reaction times and can anticipate problems?

How should we measure how good a driver is?

(I quite like dejadeadnz's concept of the 'ethical' driver.)

Anyone who has passed an IAM test?

Quic Broadband

Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

TinyTim

1058 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 167

Trusted

#2154811 5-Jan-2019 12:08

Geektastic:
TinyTim:

afe66: Also because every nz driver considers themselves to be a better than average driver they dont see why they should do courses. The other drivers on the other hand...

I suspect everybody has a different idea as to what makes a better-than-average driver, and they choose a definition that suits them. Is it one who never breaks any of the road rules - never rolls through a stop sign, never goes over the speed limit and never crosses the centre line? Or one who drives conservatively, never drives above 85 and has never had an accident? Or is it one who has a special affinity with their automobile and can drive fast times on track day? Or is it someone who never gets distracted and always drives defensively, or has superfast reaction times and can anticipate problems?

How should we measure how good a driver is?

(I quite like dejadeadnz's concept of the 'ethical' driver.)

Anyone who has passed an IAM test?

Maybe that would prove someone is a good driver but doesn't help those who haven't done the course.

Geektastic

18009 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 8465

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2155079 5-Jan-2019 20:37

Coil:
dejadeadnz:

Coil:

So truck drivers and their companies who operate rotating roasters around the 24 hour clock are not sensible and immature?
Just get off of it, You are beating a horse so bloody dead and irrelevant it is laughable.

Here's the difference, since you again just appear to lack the requisite capacity to draw relevant distinctions. Professional drivers are required to keep logs of their hours, it's an offence to falsify logbooks or for an employer to compel a driver to drive beyond allowable hours, and professional drivers typically have a much higher level of experience and training as opposed to a 15 year old.

Finally, professional drivers working shifts should, in theory, have better adjusted circadian rhythms. There are serious concerns around whether professional drivers and commercial vehicles are being properly regulated by the MoT, Police and NZTA respectively. But there's simply no sensible argument to be had that, under a properly working system, the risks produced by commercial and experienced drivers driving at night (for good reasons such of minimising the movement of large vehicles on crowded road to reduce the risk to others) is the same as some 15 year old who decides that he needs to be out at 4am "just because".

When you try and have a debate with someone, it pays not to launch into arguments ad absurdum. Look that up if you don't know what that means.

I work for a company that enforces commercial vehicle compliance. I understand how it works.. I also talk to the drivers who use these products and also know the actual real world effects of more harsh driver regulation. I have truck drivers who are on rotating shifts and on electronic logbooks. They have to work schedules that they knowingly work tired/fatigued as the electronic system forces them to. If they don't follow, they get fired. The older systems when a human managed it there were less issues with fatigue and people could manage that themselves.

A 15 year old is a huge difference between a young 20 year old you were stabbing at before. I also would not expect much from a 15 year old me behind the wheel at 4 AM either. Keep your facts the same.

The person out at 4AM has equal right to do that as you do dive on the road to play golf on a Sunday. They are entitled to leisure and freedom and some peoples vision of that may differ from yours while they still hold personal integrity and are not delinquent. Chances are this person is out frequently at that time and your special word for body clock adjusts to that and they are fine. Maybe you going and playing golf half hung over on a Sunday from the night before is a greater risk?

Anyway, humans will be human and humans make human error, as you said yourself "under a properly working system". What is a properly working system? From what I gather from you its a nanny state with archaic curfews and population control. Might as well live under the oppressed ruling of someone.

Slightly OT, but how does that system compare to the full electronic tachograph systems which are required in the EU?

Geektastic

18009 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 8465

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2155080 5-Jan-2019 20:37

Coil:
dejadeadnz:

Coil:

So truck drivers and their companies who operate rotating roasters around the 24 hour clock are not sensible and immature?
Just get off of it, You are beating a horse so bloody dead and irrelevant it is laughable.

Here's the difference, since you again just appear to lack the requisite capacity to draw relevant distinctions. Professional drivers are required to keep logs of their hours, it's an offence to falsify logbooks or for an employer to compel a driver to drive beyond allowable hours, and professional drivers typically have a much higher level of experience and training as opposed to a 15 year old.

Finally, professional drivers working shifts should, in theory, have better adjusted circadian rhythms. There are serious concerns around whether professional drivers and commercial vehicles are being properly regulated by the MoT, Police and NZTA respectively. But there's simply no sensible argument to be had that, under a properly working system, the risks produced by commercial and experienced drivers driving at night (for good reasons such of minimising the movement of large vehicles on crowded road to reduce the risk to others) is the same as some 15 year old who decides that he needs to be out at 4am "just because".

When you try and have a debate with someone, it pays not to launch into arguments ad absurdum. Look that up if you don't know what that means.

I work for a company that enforces commercial vehicle compliance. I understand how it works.. I also talk to the drivers who use these products and also know the actual real world effects of more harsh driver regulation. I have truck drivers who are on rotating shifts and on electronic logbooks. They have to work schedules that they knowingly work tired/fatigued as the electronic system forces them to. If they don't follow, they get fired. The older systems when a human managed it there were less issues with fatigue and people could manage that themselves.

A 15 year old is a huge difference between a young 20 year old you were stabbing at before. I also would not expect much from a 15 year old me behind the wheel at 4 AM either. Keep your facts the same.

The person out at 4AM has equal right to do that as you do dive on the road to play golf on a Sunday. They are entitled to leisure and freedom and some peoples vision of that may differ from yours while they still hold personal integrity and are not delinquent. Chances are this person is out frequently at that time and your special word for body clock adjusts to that and they are fine. Maybe you going and playing golf half hung over on a Sunday from the night before is a greater risk?

Anyway, humans will be human and humans make human error, as you said yourself "under a properly working system". What is a properly working system? From what I gather from you its a nanny state with archaic curfews and population control. Might as well live under the oppressed ruling of someone.

Slightly OT, but how does that system compare to the full electronic tachograph systems which are required in the EU?

Geektastic

18009 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 8465

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2155323 6-Jan-2019 15:05

"She was one of three passengers thrown from the vehicle after it reportedly lost control, left the road and rolled. The driver received serious injuries."

No, "it" didn't. The vehicle was never in control.

As long as people keep blaming the roads or the machinery, the problem will continue.

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | ... | 13