Making Public Transport Free

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MikeB4
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#2679113 23-Mar-2021 11:23

Maybe not free but remove the profit requirement, in other words break even covering costs and an allowance for provision of new equipment. The push a few decades back to make all public services run on a "commercial" foundation was flawed and certainly has not been successful.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

networkn

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#2679120 23-Mar-2021 11:35

MikeB4:

Maybe not free but remove the profit requirement, in other words break even covering costs and an allowance for provision of new equipment. The push a few decades back to make all public services run on a "commercial" foundation was flawed and certainly has not been successful.

Let's say profit is 20%. I wouldn't catch a bus for a 20% reduction on what it costs to catch a bus. 20% doesn't reflect my personal value compromise compared to having a car that is more convenient. If it was entirely free, and I could tag on and off any bus, train or whatever, any time I wanted, then I'd consider it.

dklong

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#2679144 23-Mar-2021 11:44

Public transport suffers from a major issue in that it is often absolutely full in one direction but basically empty in the other direction at peak times and the cost to operate the return leg is almost the same as the full one. As a result, Public transport in Auckland is subsidised by over 50% in some modes. In MANY cases, public transport lacks capacity currently at peak times, either on the vehicle/vessel or at the park and ride. People stop taking PT when they can't get on the bus/train/ferry that they want, it isn't frequent enough, it is so crowded that it becomes unpleasant or they have to walk miles to get to it.

Rather than continually trying to reduce the cost of PT, I would much rather they increased the capacity of it and made it easier to get to and use. In Auckland, the current cost of PT to the CBD from most outer suburbs is 'significantly' cheaper than driving in and paying for parking in town. As far as I can tell, most Auckland PT is capacity restricted in some way rather than cost prohibitive... eg.

Trains went through a huge increase in patronage when they moved the town station from Beach Road to Britomart along with modernisation of the fleet and the lines and increased frequencies however they have reached limits and thus another many billions later we have the CRL (which only solves some of the issue).
The Northern Expressway was a great success (because it was a much quicker trip than driving) and grew patronage numbers significantly until the parking ran out and access to it became difficult (about day three).
Every time they have increased ferry capacity on runs around Auckland the patronage increases until either the ferry is full again or the parking becomes a problem.

PT works when it is easy to access, frequent and either a faster or more consistent trip timewise than driving.

Simply being cheap or even free won't solve the problem if there isn't capacity. They are already subsidising it to the tune of hundreds of millions (my guess) for a system that is near its limits. Making it cheaper won't get a lot more people off the roads if there is nowhere for them to go to. If they spent the amount it would take to make it free on increased capacity then I believe that would be much more effective.

decibel

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#2679153 23-Mar-2021 11:47

I am sure that the head offices of all the various public transport outfits in NZ have plenty of free car parks for the senior management when they should be eating their own lunch.

My suggestion is to make all employers provide a free bus/train pass for their staff and no car parks.

If an employee didn't want the pass, they would be free to give it to someone else.

Either way, the public transport would get the fare and hopefully use it to increase capacity and frequency.

MikeB4

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#2679162 23-Mar-2021 11:59

decibel:

I am sure that the head offices of all the various public transport outfits in NZ have plenty of free car parks for the senior management when they should be eating their own lunch.

My suggestion is to make all employers provide a free bus/train pass for their staff and no car parks.

If an employee didn't want the pass, they would be free to give it to someone else.

Either way, the public transport would get the fare and hopefully use it to increase capacity and frequency.

Not always possible. My wife has a carpark provided and has all her fuel etc paid for (the vehicle we own). She travels for her job and it is not possible to use public transport for a lot of that travel.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

SheriffNZ

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#2679170 23-Mar-2021 12:12

May I suggest that people "Have your Say" here on infrastructure funding, amongst other topical topics.

https://www.aotearoa2050.infrastructure.govt.nz/

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frankv

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#2679222 23-Mar-2021 12:31

networkn:

The traffic as bad as it is now is not desirable.

Human transport systems are self-regulating to maintain approximately the same level of inconvenience. If you make a transport system better and more convenient, more people will use it until it hits some other bottleneck. Make more motorways and more people will drive, until the roads are equally clogged.. Make a better PT network and more people will use it until the buses/trams/trains are again overloaded. Whilst this would initially clear the motorways, fairly quickly people who would previously not have driven will now drive, so the same number of people will clog the motorways.

So improving Auckland's transport network is a near-bottomless pit to pour money into. To make a significant difference, a complete paradigm shift (e.g. a subway system like London or New York) is needed. It would be better to spend the money to get people and businesses to move out of Auckland.

frankv

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#2679231 23-Mar-2021 12:44

networkn:

I think you are still missing the point I was making. Surely by increasing the number of people on public transport, you are reducing the number of people in cars.

No! That's only true if the limiting factor is how many people want to get from one place to another. But if the limiting factor is how *difficult* it is to get from one place to another, then making it easier just results in more people traveling, until it is about the same difficulty as it was before. Only when all the people who want to travel are actually traveling do you start to get a reduction in the number of cars.

Certainly, a bus carries more people in the same space when it's full. But if you make services more frequent over more routes, there will be less people on each bus. And the stop-start nature of buses tends to clog up the streets.

networkn

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#2679237 23-Mar-2021 13:00

frankv:

networkn:

The traffic as bad as it is now is not desirable.

Human transport systems are self-regulating to maintain approximately the same level of inconvenience. If you make a transport system better and more convenient, more people will use it until it hits some other bottleneck. Make more motorways and more people will drive, until the roads are equally clogged.. Make a better PT network and more people will use it until the buses/trams/trains are again overloaded. Whilst this would initially clear the motorways, fairly quickly people who would previously not have driven will now drive, so the same number of people will clog the motorways.

So improving Auckland's transport network is a near-bottomless pit to pour money into. To make a significant difference, a complete paradigm shift (e.g. a subway system like London or New York) is needed. It would be better to spend the money to get people and businesses to move out of Auckland.

I don't profess to be an expert in public transport, but Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong, all seem to be doing OK :)

Admittedly Tokyo at Rush hour on the train meant getting to know people intimately :)

The real problem of course, is population. :)

decibel

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#2679258 23-Mar-2021 13:44

MikeB4:

decibel:

I am sure that the head offices of all the various public transport outfits in NZ have plenty of free car parks for the senior management when they should be eating their own lunch.

My suggestion is to make all employers provide a free bus/train pass for their staff and no car parks.

If an employee didn't want the pass, they would be free to give it to someone else.

Either way, the public transport would get the fare and hopefully use it to increase capacity and frequency.

Not always possible. My wife has a carpark provided and has all her fuel etc paid for (the vehicle we own). She travels for her job and it is not possible to use public transport for a lot of that travel.

In which case, she gives her free pass to you or a friend/neighbour. But as others have said, the intermittent nature of busses is a problem.

Remember the Martin jet-pack? We could have all been flying to work by now (and colliding at great heights) , especially with those pigs flying past.

frankv

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#2679280 23-Mar-2021 14:16

networkn:

frankv:

So improving Auckland's transport network is a near-bottomless pit to pour money into. To make a significant difference, a complete paradigm shift (e.g. a subway system like London or New York) is needed. It would be better to spend the money to get people and businesses to move out of Auckland.

I don't profess to be an expert in public transport, but Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong, all seem to be doing OK :)

Admittedly Tokyo at Rush hour on the train meant getting to know people intimately :)

The real problem of course, is population. :)

I learned this (which about my limit in PT knowledge) as (surprise, surprise!) the "Motorway effect" (but Googling for that doesn't find anything useful), with regard to provisioning computer systems to an expected level of service. It's a variant of Murphy's Law. In short, building a motorway/bypass to alleviate congestion in a town, after correctly calculating the amount of through traffic vs local traffic, results in the town congestion remaining the same, and the motorway/bypass being also equally clogged. This still applies if you take the motorway effect into account. I believe that North Korea and Myanmar are exceptions to this law.

All the examples you give have subways, so are almost totally, but not completely, unlike Auckland. As a helpful critter, I've highlighted my mention of subways in my previous reply.

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wellygary

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#2679283 23-Mar-2021 14:21

frankv:

I learned this (which about my limit in PT knowledge) as (surprise, surprise!) the "Motorway effect" (but Googling for that doesn't find anything useful), with regard to provisioning computer systems to an expected level of service.

You talking about induced demand?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

frankv

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#2679287 23-Mar-2021 14:30

wellygary:

frankv:

I learned this (which about my limit in PT knowledge) as (surprise, surprise!) the "Motorway effect" (but Googling for that doesn't find anything useful), with regard to provisioning computer systems to an expected level of service.

You talking about induced demand?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

Yup... that describes it in a much more thorough and erudite way.

1101

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#2684832 31-Mar-2021 15:36

want to make it work

make petrol so expensive that PT is the only viable option . Dont worry about those who need to use cars for whatever reason , their problem
make car ownership so expensive or inconvenient that PT is the only option. Dont worry about those who need to use cars for whatever reason , their problem

have some level of dictatorship that can force through public works , without nimby's & without consent processes
have an economy that can afford the cost of PT . NZ's local councils & govt are insolvent , they have no money (its borrow borrow borrow)
lower the cost of building rail and bus loops . Import cheap overseas labor to build the stuff , get rid of min & living wages in the build & running of PT

stop comparing NZ & Ak to overseas cites that in in no way a close comparison in every other way .

Rikkitic

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#2684884 31-Mar-2021 16:48

Somehow I missed this thread earlier. I would gladly use public transport if it existed where I live (not even close). I would have loved to take the train to locations in my region (the tracks are there but a previous government didn't like rail). I used to enjoy the train up from Wellington (also cancelled). I can't speak for public transport inside cities like Auckland, but outside the cities it has been going the wrong way for a long time. Whether it is free or not, it first has to exist. If it does, and is reasonably convenient, I am a fan. I don't think the cost of it is a major issue as long as it isn't outrageously expensive. I also don't think one-size-fits-all funding solutions are particularly bright. Instead of blindly taxing everyone to pay for it, selectively tax those who willingly choose modes of private transport and other things that impose the biggest burdens on everyone else.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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