RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

1 | ... | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | 52 | 53 | 54 | ... | 70

17134 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3193280 10-Feb-2024 16:03

HarmLessSolutions: Assuming a consumption rate of 5km/kWh a 4kWh battery will provide 20km max on battery power alone. Short commuting may work but anything beyond that it becomes a hybrid ICE and the freqency of battery depletion isn't going to be great for life of battery.

Your consumption range estimate is almost identical to Prius 2012 PHEV when new in driver selected EV mode.

I believe your hypothetical on battery is incorrect in practice for Prius PHEV.

I'm not aware of any problems of that nature. Toyota hybrid HEV are well engineered to maintain economy and battery life. I don't think Toyota PHEV will be different. They will have left reserve and self-recharge ability to avoid the common cases of life reduction. Clicking on several trademe sales for 2012 PHEV Prius looks like excellent life. This thread is about the RUC change and probably not the right thread for extending discussion on other aspects.

RUKI

1402 posts

Uber Geek

#3193741 10-Feb-2024 22:32

@gzt FYI: Toyota PHEV Prime had 8.8KWH battery starting from 2017. In 2020 restyle Prime (5 seater vs 4 seater 2017) battery remains the same 8.8kWh and black interior introduced instead of white plastic earlier.
Instrument cluster displays 60km on a full charge. Actual is 50-55kms depends on terrain and aircon use covering the needs of many just in EV mode.
JDM Prime as well as some other awesome JDM cars is limited to low spec or not allowed at all because of the legislation forbidding import of the latest models with smart telemetry which broadcasts on certain frequencies (search official memo).
Toyota NZ has no plans to bring more PHEVs and 2024 Restyle Prime is only represented by 3 sample cars in NZ @$75k each. Absolute gem, but a bit pricy.

Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair

HarmLessSolutions

974 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#3193745 10-Feb-2024 22:57

RUKI: @gzt FYI: Toyota PHEV Prime had 8.8KWH battery starting from 2017. In 2020 restyle Prime (5 seater vs 4 seater 2017) battery remains the same 8.8kWh and black interior introduced instead of white plastic earlier.
Instrument cluster displays 60km on a full charge. Actual is 50-55kms depends on terrain and aircon use covering the needs of many just in EV mode.
JDM Prime as well as some other awesome JDM cars is limited to low spec or not allowed at all because of the legislation forbidding import of the latest models with smart telemetry which broadcasts on certain frequencies (search official memo).
Toyota NZ has no plans to bring more PHEVs and 2024 Restyle Prime is only represented by 3 sample cars in NZ @$75k each. Absolute gem, but a bit pricy.

8.8kWh @ 5km/kWh = 44km. Even 50kms seems a bit optimistic compared to the typical 5km/kWh that EVs return from their batteries. Some contribution from the ICE input seems to be where the extra range is being sourced from I guess.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

gzt

17134 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3193802 11-Feb-2024 09:53

I think you'll find RUKI's many years experience servicing Prius is accurate and does not include any contribution from ICE engine to achieve that.

gzt

17134 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3193805 11-Feb-2024 10:05

NZHerald has an article with claims EV owners will pay twice the road tax petrol owners will pay. It's paywalled can't see the figures used.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/ev-owners-say-their-road-user-chargers-will-cost-what-petrol-car-owners-pay-in-fuel-tax/EKIRRN3MKBENTI5DMGA6W4TETA/

k1w1k1d

1523 posts

Uber Geek

#3193815 11-Feb-2024 10:53

My take from the article is that EV owners will pay more in road tax than petrol vehicles until RUC's apply to all vehicles, but still have cheaper motoring due to the lower cost of electricity compared to petrol.

"The Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority’s rule of thumb is that charging an average EV is the equivalent to paying about 40¢ a litre for fuel."

Quote from minister Simeon Brown in the article.

"In the meantime, electric vehicle owners might pay more in RUCs than petrol cars pay in fuel tax, but “EVs are generally cheaper to run than conventional vehicles as electricity is cheaper than petrol”, Brown said."

Scott3

3970 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3193817 11-Feb-2024 11:50

k1w1k1d:

My take from the article is that EV owners will pay more in road tax than petrol vehicles until RUC's apply to all vehicles, but still have cheaper motoring due to the lower cost of electricity compared to petrol.

"The Energy Efficiency and Conservation Authority’s rule of thumb is that charging an average EV is the equivalent to paying about 40¢ a litre for fuel."

Quote from minister Simeon Brown in the article.

"In the meantime, electric vehicle owners might pay more in RUCs than petrol cars pay in fuel tax, but “EVs are generally cheaper to run than conventional vehicles as electricity is cheaper than petrol”, Brown said."

Running costs are highly dependent on model selected for the comparison. If we look at subcompact commuters, A Yaris hybrid will be cheaper to run than any EV.

Example:

Yaris hybrid hatch: 3.6l/100km (3p-WLTP conversion) * 2.627/L (91RON at costco westgate) = $9.4572 /100km

Mini Electric hatch: $7.6/100km (RUC) + 18kWh/100km (WLTP) * $0.17/kWh (my marginal cost of power) = $10.66 /100km

In the above example, the EV is more expensive to run (despite me having cheap power). This is as it is paying something like 2.4x the road tax of the Yaris hybrid.

Quite a perverse outcome.

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

rugrat

3107 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3193828 11-Feb-2024 12:56

I had a look at purchase prices for above cars:

Yaris hybrid hatch started at around $32,000 to buy.

Mini Electric hatch: started around $70,000.

Need to put difference of purchase prices in calculations as well, not just cost of power, fuel, road taxes.

This is where got mini electric price from

https://christchurchminigarage.co.nz/models/electric?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyPj9r_yhhAMVWqhmAh3OwQBOEAAYASAAEgJbn_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Edit: Above site also has a slider where can put in power price, petrol cost and petrol consumption of current car. I put in 5.7 litres per 100 km.

Charging power at night rate of around 14 cents, traveling 12km per day average savings were $10 per week. Guessing that’s not including RUC, so take that off and savings over using fuel would be approx $3 a week.

gzt

17134 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3193834 11-Feb-2024 13:28

Technofreak: The government isn't double taxing PHEV's. In fact a smart PHEV owner using a PHEV as intended will pay the least of any vehicle owner.

Incorrect. PHEVs have two key functional utilities separating them from hybrids. They are intended to be used in a charged combined mode to deliver excellent fuel economy greater than hybrid. For example the 2012 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV mentioned earlier.

I will grant you later PHEVs like 2024 RAV4 have exceptional electric only range and in many senses could be usefully categorised in the way you suggest to an extent.

gzt

17134 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3193837 11-Feb-2024 13:37

rugrat: Need to put difference of purchase prices in calculations as well, not just cost of power, fuel, road taxes.

This discussion is focused on the fairness and cost of road user charges for EV and PHEV in relation to 100% fossil vehicles Unless I have missed a proposal to vary road user charges based on the purchase value of the vehicle, purchase price is irrelevant.

Dingbatt

6756 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3193858 11-Feb-2024 14:36

gzt:
rugrat: Need to put difference of purchase prices in calculations as well, not just cost of power, fuel, road taxes.

This discussion is focused on the fairness and cost of road user charges for EV and PHEV in relation to 100% fossil vehicles Unless I have missed a proposal to vary road user charges based on the purchase value of the vehicle, purchase price is irrelevant.

I believe rugrat’s post was in relation to Simeon Brown’s comment about EVs being cheaper to run than ICE vehicles. If you include the premium you pay to own an EV over the equivalent ICE vehicle, then they certainly aren’t cheaper to own and operate. Having just received my insurance premium request for my Model 3, I can attest to that!

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

RUKI

1402 posts

Uber Geek

#3194086 11-Feb-2024 19:29

My mate yesterday showed zero interest towards RUC related news. He said their two petrol cars are doing about 10.000kms p.a. I mentioned to him there is drop of fuel tax from the end of June, he did not show any excitement. I then said, RUC for petrol cars is coming. Again, no reaction. I know he can count money well. I asked: any plans to change cars, perhaps Hybrid or PHEV? Nope, they are focused on other priorities, like diet and travel.
My conclusion after that discussion: someone could be very much concerned or even stressed about RUC and its fairness, while others just do not care. Wonder who sleeps better at night? They go to bed at 9p.m. Time when my day is not even near over yet :)

Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair

BlakJak

1275 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#3194090 11-Feb-2024 19:41

No point in worrying about it. My automotive costs are chiefly cost-of-living-life type expenses, and whether I'm paying taxes at the pump or in RUC i'll still be paying it, and perhaps fortunately, i'm likely to be able to manage one way or the other with a little bit of pre-planning. RUC will not suit people who live closer to the margins and who put petrol in their vehicles $20 at a time, because now they've gotta find a lumpier sum of money ($76) periodically, and that's harder to do when you're running a hand-to-mouth style budget. But if you're not there, it's just moving the expense from column A to column B.

(There's a political argument here I won't go into, also).

Where I do get grumpy is where bureaucracy is created unnecessarily, and where the the authorities wangle the figures to ultimately see us paying more.

No signature to see here, move along...

Scott3

3970 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3194098 11-Feb-2024 20:39

BlakJak: Ok so what does that mean exactly...? What is the "right" usage profile for a phev then?

Typically the "right" usage profile for a PHEV is (without considering RUC):

A decent chunk (ideally 75%+) of running on electricity.
I reasonable amount of total running (ideally 10,000km/year +)
Some reason that a full EV won't work.

General example use case for a PHEV with say a 40km Electric range, would be a person who has a 30km round trip commute (or 30km each way way if they can charge at both ends), that they do 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year, but the owner also uses the car for a long trip that is poorly served by fast charging twice a year, which makes a pure EV unattractive.

1 & 2, mean that there the car will do a decent amount of electric running, and have a decent chance of paying back the higher cost and environmental impact of manufacture vs an ICE or non plug in hybrid.

3, means that one can't simply go pure EV, as if the car was a dedicated commuter, one wouldn't need the engine at all, and purchasing it + lugging it around + maintaining it is all not needed, and a sub $20k leaf would likely get the job done cheaper.

Further to 3, note that this is not just range, but also capabilities in the price range. An outlander PHEV is way cheaper than an EV9 AWD for a buyer looking for a 7 seat AWD SUV.

But of course all PHEV's aren't the same.

~2012 Outlander PHEV. All electric range probiably down to 30km or less these days. Economy on petrol a touch worse than the comparable ICE version (~8.5L/100km)
BMW i3 REX: 100km, 150km & 200km electric range version. Highly optimized for EV running, hence poor fuel economy when the engine is running (around 8L/100km.
2012 Prius Plug in: Poor electric range (~18km), and weak electric system, requiring the engine to be started whenever rapid acceleration is required. But highly optimized for running in hybrid mode (~4L/100k)
~2017 Prus prime: 40km electric range, stronger electric drive system, still great economy in hybrid mode:
Rav4 Prime: 68km electric range, comparable economy to the non plug in hybrid in hybrid mode.

When RUC's are considered:

The old outlanders range is so low, that it will likely end up doing a decent chunk of running on the engine, and in this case will cost a lot to run. $16.1/100km if 60% electric running...
i3 has enough range that the engine is really just a back up in many chases. If one ran it 100% electric the reduced RUC rate, it would beat the yaris hybrid to become the cheapist to run (fuel / tax only) car on the road at $8.02/100km. Break even point with the yaris hybrid is about 92% electric running.
Prius plug in would likely also do a decent chunk of running on the engine, if we say 50%, this works out to $11.9/100km. Not bad, but still worse than the non plug in version of the same car ($10.508/100km)
With 80% electric electric running the RAV4 prime works out to $10.53/100km. Break even with the non plug in hybrid happens at 49% electric running at $13.9/100km

In short, some use cases do poorly, some do OK, but not enough to justify the higher capital cost of buying a PHEV.

SaltyNZ

8230 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

2degrees

Lifetime subscriber

#3194104 11-Feb-2024 21:26

Scott3:

General example use case for a PHEV with say a 40km Electric range, would be a person who has a 30km round trip commute (or 30km each way way if they can charge at both ends), that they do 5 days a week, 48 weeks a year, but the owner also uses the car for a long trip that is poorly served by fast charging twice a year, which makes a pure EV unattractive.

In which case you're probably still better off buying an EV and renting an ICE for that long trip. Of which there can't be very many these days and will become increasingly rarer.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

1 | ... | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | 52 | 53 | 54 | ... | 70