EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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#2930256 16-Jun-2022 09:32

RobDickinson:

Oh and the NHSTA report is out and its as expected utter garbage, even them themselves say you shouldnt use it to draw any conclusions.

I absolutely agree. I use autopilot myself on the motorway, and it does a pretty decent job - in fact, personally I still believe it's voodoo black magic and probably will until I die - but I know what the limits are. My point is not that it's complete crap; my point is that Musk doesn't exactly go out of his way to deconflate 'autopilot' from 'full self driving' which in itself is currently nowhere actually near 'full self driving'.

I know that, you know that. But let's face it, there are a frightening number of people who think 5G causes COVID, and they're all still allowed to drive cars.

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RobDickinson

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#2930261 16-Jun-2022 09:55

You cant help some people. you really cant.

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#2930268 16-Jun-2022 10:03

We are allowed to discuss these things here, this is not the Tesla religion thread.

What s/he meant was people are ordering hamburgers thinking the burgers are made with ham.

RobDickinson

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#2930275 16-Jun-2022 10:26

Its not an autonomy thread either

Obraik

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#2930298 16-Jun-2022 11:19

Technofreak:

I don't know whether the Telsa system uses augmented GPS but many "self drive" systems rely on augmented GPS signals, something that's available in most of the developed world but we don't have here in New Zealand, not yet anyway.

Autopilot and the FSD beta in the US does not rely on that.

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RobDickinson

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#2930299 16-Jun-2022 11:23

Any self driving system relying on GPS or internet is doomed.

Technofreak

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#2930311 16-Jun-2022 12:01

"Rely" was probably not quite the correct term to have used.

These systems I know of are used for autonomous vehicles in industrial situations and they use augmented GPS as one of several inputs to get a highly accurate navigation solution. Loss of one sensor from time to time does not prevent accurate navigation but can lead to a degradation in accuracy if particular sensors or multiple sensors are off line for extended periods.

Augmented GPS is also used in aviation, offering big advantages, where it is combined with terrestrial navigation aids and INS to give a highly accurate and highly reliable navigation solution. Basically GPS for accuracy and INS for reliability.

One of the reasons augmented GPS has been introduced is to help advance the use of self drive vehicles.

You say that GPS isn't used in the Tesla system. Can you be absolutely sure of that? I'd be surprised if it weren't used in some way or another in the background, augmented or not.

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RobDickinson

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#2930314 16-Jun-2022 12:05

Technofreak:

"Rely" was probably not quite the correct term to have used.

You say that GPS isn't used in the Tesla system.

No one said that? I am sure they take GPS as one input, currently they also use maps, inertia, wheel movement etc too.

Obraik

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#2930315 16-Jun-2022 12:08

GPS is used by the navigation that FSD uses to make decisions on which way to go but the actual driving decisions are made based on what the car sees. Their goal is to make it drive like a human, which is why Tesla's FSD works anywhere in the US rather than being limited to pre-planned routes like with other self-driving systems.

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RobDickinson

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#2930362 16-Jun-2022 13:17

Access to Crash Data May Affect Crash Reporting

Crash data recording and telemetry capabilities may vary widely by manufacturer and driving automation system. Many Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicles may be limited in their capabilities to record data related to driving automation system engagement and crash circumstances. The vehicle’s ability to remotely transmit this data to the manufacturer for notification purposes can also widely vary. Furthermore, Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicles are generally privately owned; as a result, when a reportable crash does occur, manufacturers may not know of it unless contacted by the vehicle owner. These limitations are important to keep in mind when reviewing the Summary Incident Report Data. Manufacturers of Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicles with limited data recording and telemetry capabilities may only receive consumer reports of driving automation system involvement in a crash outcome, and there may be a time delay before the manufacturer is notified, if the manufacturer is notified at all. In general, timeliness of the General Order reporting is dependent on if and when the manufacturer becomes aware of the crash and not on when the crash occurs. Due to variation in data recording and telemetry capabilities, the Summary Incident Report Data should not be assumed to be statistically representative of all crashes. For example, a Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicle manufacturer with access to advanced data recording and telemetry may report a higher number of crashes than a manufacturer with limited access, simply due to the latter’s reliance on conventional crash reporting processes. In other words, it is feasible that some Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicle crashes are not included in the Summary Incident Report Data because the reporting entity was not aware of them. Furthermore, some crashes of Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicles with limited telematic capabilities may not be included in the General Order if the consumer did not state that the automation system was engaged within 30 seconds of the crash or if there is no other available information indicating Level 2 ADAS engagement due to limited data available from the crashed vehicle. By contrast, some manufacturers have access to a much greater amount of crash data almost immediately after a crash because of their advanced data recording and telemetry.

Incident Report Data May Be Incomplete or Unverified

A reporting entity is required to submit an incident report within a certain time from when it receives notice of a crash that may be reportable. This report is required regardless of whether the reporting entity has verified or agrees with the information. Therefore, initial reports may reflect incomplete or unknown information. This means that a reporting entity with access to vehicle telemetry may quickly become aware of an air bag deployment incident subject to the General Order, but it may not become aware of all circumstances related to the crash, such as surface conditions, whether all passengers were belted, or whether an injury occurred. Similarly, a reporting entity may receive a consumer complaint or claim that includes incomplete information. A reporting entity that receives new or additional information after the initial report is submitted is required to submit an updated report but is not required to take additional affirmative actions to gather further details.

Redacted Confidential Business Information and Personally Identifiable

Information Confidential Business Information (CBI) requests have been made by multiple reporting entities for three data fields available to the public: ADAS / ADS Version, Was vehicle within its ODD [operational design domain] at the time of the incident? and Narrative. All Personally Identifiable Information (PII) has also been removed from the Summary Incident Report Data. Redactions of CBI and PII are noted in the data except for the VIN of the subject vehicle and the dates recorded in the report. The last 6 digits of the subject vehicle VIN have been withheld as PII, and dates are reported as month and year without the day.

The Same Crash May Have Multiple Reports

For crashes involving a Level 2 ADAS-equipped vehicle that meet the reporting requirements of the General Order, the reporting entity may be required to submit multiple reports for a single crash (an initial report, a 10-day followup, and any subsequent updates). In addition, more than one entity may be responsible for reporting the same crash. For example, the vehicle manufacturer and the Level 2 ADAS equipment supplier may both be named in the General Order. This means that a single crash may have multiple reports from multiple entities. Consequently, the overall number of reports submitted does not equate to the total number of incidents and is not a meaningful safety metric.

Summary Incident Report Data Are Not Normalized

Reporting entities are not required to submit information regarding the number of vehicles they have manufactured, the number of vehicles they are operating, or the distances traveled by those vehicles. Data required to contextualize the incident rates are limited. Data regarding the number of crashes reported for any given manufacturer or operator, therefore, have not been normalized or adjusted by any measure of exposure, including the operational driving domain or vehicle miles traveled. For example, a reporting entity could report an absolute number of crashes that is higher than another reporting entity but operate a higher number of vehicles for many more miles.

SaltyNZ

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#2930365 16-Jun-2022 13:21

RobDickinson:

For example, a reporting entity could report an absolute number of crashes that is higher than another reporting entity but operate a higher number of vehicles for many more miles.

This last point is key. Of course Tesla are going to be having more crashes - there are far more of them than anything else on the road.

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RobDickinson

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#2930367 16-Jun-2022 13:23

Quite possibly they are the leaders in mileage using ADAS.

The point is no one knows because most of the other manufacturers dont have a clue if or when their ADAS system is used or if its involved in an accident

Obraik

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#2930368 16-Jun-2022 13:24

I think someone needs to make an ADAS thread. The last page and a bit has had little to do with EVs

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Obraik

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#2930431 16-Jun-2022 15:30

In EV news...

Ford has had a bit of a struggle this week with the Mach-E. First, there has been an issue with the battery contactor in nearly 50k Mach-Es that will likely result in a recall. Now they've reported that they are making no profit on the vehicle due to inflation. Maybe the F150 Lightnings that they've started shipping can help out the stranded Mach-Es on the highway 😉

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wellygary

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#2930479 16-Jun-2022 15:38

Obraik:

Now they've reported that they are making no profit on the vehicle due to inflation.

This is happening across business in a huge way. pricing pressures are severely squeezing margins, and it is taking time for companies to be able to pass these through....

Irrespective of the poor old NZD, I think we are going to start to see reasonable price rises across many EV models in NZ in the next 6 months, the 80K rebate cap will hold them down for a while, but eventually some models are likely to be forced outside the regime ( unless the govt increases the limit by about 10K)

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