Should cyclists pay road taxes ?

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Should cyclists pay road taxes ?

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#2718352 4-Jun-2021 15:52

sir1963:

You get to spend your money ONCE. Road taxes are for roads and you have simply paid for what you have used.

So why do roads need to be funded out of general taxes, rates and GST then?

SaltyNZ

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#2718353 4-Jun-2021 15:52

mattwnz: Owners of electric vehicles don't currently pay road user charges yet would create more wear on the roads, and also contribute far more to congestion. . Congestion is what requires increasing capacityand wear is what leads to maintainence costs.
Cyclists don't really cause any congestion and wear is negligible. Likewise we need to encourage more cycling for health which reduces health care costs. So charges are not justified. Maybe they would be more justified with electric bikes especially if they lead to congestion.

As someone who has been driving an EV for years now, the RUC waiver didn’t factor into my decision one way or the other. I fully acknowledge that at some point EVs will need to pay them but a) they should not pay the same as a 3500kg diesel truck, and b) we do still need to be doing whatever we can to promote them over ICE vehicles when the reality is people do still need a car in NZ, even if there were more cycle ways available.

As in for me personally it would be at best about a 20km ride to Silverdale all on SH1 to catch a bus, so a bike would not be very safe.

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sir1963

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#2718354 4-Jun-2021 15:57

mudguard:

sir1963:

Why not ask cyclists to contribute ?

What exactly makes cyclists so special ?

People who swim get health benefits, yet still have to pay pool entrance fees. Actually on that basis I would love to have someone else pay for my Golf membership.

I don't use public libraries, generate one wheelie bin of rubbish every two months. Why not user pays on everything? I pay a golf membership too and only use that once a week, however I'm not sure the course I play at pays market value rates so it's subsidised.

Sure, and churches pay no rates either, nor do they pay taxes.

And friends of mine have no children, they do not get a tax discount, in fact those with kids get tax kick backs.

I pay for my rubbish wheelie bin each week, I pay to take green waste to the recycling centre.

and as I say, What exactly makes cyclists so special that they should contribute nothing extra towards the cycle lanes they are going to use ?

KrazyKid

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#2718355 4-Jun-2021 16:05

Charging all road users fairly makes sense and is hard to argue against.

But then you have to make it economic to collect the fees.

RUCS and Fuel excise are economic to collect.
But collecting from bike users is much harder. Can't reliably measure KM travelled and they don't use fuel.
Maybe the flat license fee would work, or a extra tax on bike tires at point of sale?

A fair charging system would charge based on the weight (and thus damage) to the road.
However then is the have the issue that the damage to roads is minor as bike weigh so little a fair license fee would be uneconomic to collect and enforce as it is so small.

Also if you believe climate change is an issue we want to reduce CO2 emissions by a lot so there is actually a strong argument to subside cycling by building cycling infrastructure.
If we are reducing transport CO2 emissions the bringing in fees is counter productive to this goal.

Finally spending on cycling infrastructure seems to have a 10X return in savings due to health benefits according to a NZ study

All of these reasons seem to me to more that justify free cycling on the road network.

Full disclosure - I own an EV and and ride an electric bike to work :)

mudguard

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#2718356 4-Jun-2021 16:06

sir1963:

What exactly makes cyclists so special that they should contribute nothing extra towards the cycle lanes they are going to use ?

It doesn't make them special, you can apply that argument to anything, schools, hospitals. Heck, why subsidise hip replacements? Cheaper to give them painkillers and hope they pop off before they get super. That's a better ROI.

I agree, the bridge seems like a tremendous sum, but already we've seen today projects that are getting canned because of cost, so they're either under-bidding in the first place or clueless to the actual costs.

It seems ridiculous that you cannot get from Auckland's North Shore to the City (or vice versa) without using a car, ferry or bus.

Actually that's not true. You can go the long way.

sir1963

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#2718357 4-Jun-2021 16:07

mudguard:

sir1963:

You get to spend your money ONCE. Road taxes are for roads and you have simply paid for what you have used.

So why do roads need to be funded out of general taxes, rates and GST then?

well for a start:

100% of commerce relies on roads.

100% of emergency services relies on roads

100% of tourism relies on roads

100% of infrastructure relies on roads

100% of the health system relies on roads

100% of the education system relies on roads

100% of construction relies on roads

The majority of the work force relies on roads

And road users contribute an additional $2 Billion in road user taxes (and $300 Million GST on top of those taxes) compared to cyclists $0.

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sir1963

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#2718362 4-Jun-2021 16:21

KrazyKid:

Charging all road users fairly makes sense and is hard to argue against.

But then you have to make it economic to collect the fees.

RUCS and Fuel excise are economic to collect.
But collecting from bike users is much harder. Can't reliably measure KM travelled and they don't use fuel.
Maybe the flat license fee would work, or a extra tax on bike tires at point of sale?

A fair charging system would charge based on the weight (and thus damage) to the road.
However then is the have the issue that the damage to roads is minor as bike weigh so little a fair license fee would be uneconomic to collect and enforce as it is so small.

Also if you believe climate change is an issue we want to reduce CO2 emissions by a lot so there is actually a strong argument to subside cycling by building cycling infrastructure.
If we are reducing transport CO2 emissions the bringing in fees is counter productive to this goal.

Finally spending on cycling infrastructure seems to have a 10X return in savings due to health benefits according to a NZ study

All of these reasons seem to me to more that justify free cycling on the road network.

Full disclosure - I own an EV and and ride an electric bike to work :)

Don't need to do per KM , all you need to do it make major cycleways a fixed fee. Those that use it have a Credit Card attached to their bike ID, paid automatically. Those that cycle on country roads pay nothing, but then again they are not getting a sealed road or a seperate cycleway. You want to see all the high tech systems professional sports use to monitor their athletes.

This is pretty much the way congestion charges are done in major cities around the world, its NOT hard.

Maintenance is only needed AFTER it has been built, you need to add that into the equation.

ALL physical exercises has benefits, most has fees attached either through entrance fees, sports club fees, etc. Cycling is probably the most expensive when you account for the asset costs.

blackjack17

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#2718363 4-Jun-2021 16:24

sir1963:

But bus passengers are NOT 100% subsidised, and the bus still has to pay road user taxes.

Over 65s are ...

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frankv

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#2718364 4-Jun-2021 16:24

sir1963:

and as I say, What exactly makes cyclists so special that they should contribute nothing extra towards the cycle lanes they are going to use ?

Because every cyclist is *not* driving a car and clogging up the roads. The savings on roading issues outweighs the cost of a cycle lane. Except maybe when the cycle lane is on an $800M bridge.

mudguard

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#2718366 4-Jun-2021 16:25

sir1963:

And road users contribute an additional $2 Billion in road user taxes (and $300 Million GST on top of those taxes) compared to cyclists $0.

I guess Rotorua hasn't noticed all those mountain bikers in the forests contributing zero dollars.

Perhaps we ought to charge per kilometre of footpath for pedestrians too. Just have little paywave readers every 50m

morphyoss

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#2718368 4-Jun-2021 16:31

I tend to think when cycling infrastructure makes it even close to being on par with the infrastructure that is provided for the private car, then you have an argument for potentially asking for a contribution. At the moment nationally all we get is an unconnected series of projects that doesn't come close for scratching the surface for providing a decent, safe connected cycling network. Not to mention around 80+ years of basically no funding in this area. There's a lot of catching up to do.

When road space prioritises storing private property over getting people from a to b you know that the balance is wrong, for what is an essential public good.

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blackjack17

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#2718370 4-Jun-2021 16:36

sir1963:

Don't need to do per KM , all you need to do it make major cycleways a fixed fee. Those that use it have a Credit Card attached to their bike ID, paid automatically. Those that cycle on country roads pay nothing, but then again they are not getting a sealed road or a separate cycleway. You want to see all the high tech systems professional sports use to monitor their athletes.

This is pretty much the way congestion charges are done in major cities around the world, its NOT hard.

Maintenance is only needed AFTER it has been built, you need to add that into the equation.

ALL physical exercises has benefits, most has fees attached either through entrance fees, sports club fees, etc. Cycling is probably the most expensive when you account for the asset costs.

If it isn't hard then a lot of other countries would do it wouldn't they?

Can you name any countries that charge cyclists a road user tax?

I found this https://www.bikebiz.com/bicycle-licensing-for-dummies/ apparently Japan still charges a rego fee but plenty have tried all have dropped.

What would such a scheme hope to achieve? Making people pay their own way so it is all "fair"

This isn't how societies work. If we all only pay for what we use then all roads should have trachers or all cars have GPS and we should only pay for the development and running costs of the roads we actually use. Why should I be paying for the Christchurch hospital, the Dunedin libraries ...

As far as cycling being an expensive hobby I brought my commuter bike 10 years ago for $600, I have spent about $400 on maintenance, accessories etc and have used it nearly every day in that time. How much have you paid for your golf clubs over the past 10 years?

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#2718371 4-Jun-2021 16:37

frankv:

Except maybe when the cycle lane is on an $800M bridge.

Yes, imagine if they spent that money on, oh I don’t know, some EV charging infrastructure?

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blackjack17

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#2718373 4-Jun-2021 16:38

sir1963:

100% of the education system relies on roads

???

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morphyoss

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#2718374 4-Jun-2021 16:38

sir1963:

well for a start:

100% of commerce relies on roads.

100% of emergency services relies on roads

100% of tourism relies on roads

100% of infrastructure relies on roads

100% of the health system relies on roads

100% of the education system relies on roads

100% of construction relies on roads

The majority of the work force relies on roads

And road users contribute an additional $2 Billion in road user taxes (and $300 Million GST on top of those taxes) compared to cyclists $0.

Firstly - who knew these things didnt exist before the auto-mobile...!

Secondly - no one is suggesting it is a competition. These things will still happen after cycling infrastructure is built, the world will not grind to a halt. It's about giving people a genuine choice to get around. Its the way the world is moving, we need to as well, especially for a city so prone to congestion and a history of poor future planning.

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