EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#3043075 28-Feb-2023 09:52

xlinknz:

if we purchased a new $36K HEV e.g. Corolla wagon HEV and we put that saved $36K the bank at 5% interest (can be locked at 5 years TD) that interest would pay the petrol per annum meaning the the HEV (or ICE) vehicle has a better TCO since we would have only spent 1/2 the cost of the Tesla

None of the EV TCO Calculators appear to consider that in many scenarios the cost difference if one banked the capital cost difference interest would pay the fossil fuel

Has anyone else considered that aspect of TCO?

But then you are driving a corolla?

Richard rich.ms

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#3043078 28-Feb-2023 10:02

Resale is an interesting one. ICE last forever these days. EV can as well, but we all know what its like as batteries degrade, so unsure how anyone buying a 5yo EV will take that as compared to a 5yo ICE. Having said that demand should be high

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#3043079 28-Feb-2023 10:03

xlinknz:

Hi all

We are on the brink of buying a new EV e.g. a Tesla Model Y @ $73K (less rebate)

Then we discovered an aspect of total cost of ownership (10 years) we had not previously realised.

if we purchased a new $36K HEV e.g. Corolla wagon HEV and we put that saved $36K the bank at 5% interest (can be locked at 5 years TD) that interest would pay the petrol per annum meaning the the HEV (or ICE) vehicle has a better TCO since we would have only spent 1/2 the cost of the Tesla

None of the EV TCO Calculators appear to consider that in many scenarios the cost difference if one banked the capital cost difference interest would pay the fossil fuel

Has anyone else considered that aspect of TCO?

Yes, it's why I recently didn't buy an EV, opting instead for a (non-plugin) hybrid.

I compared the costs of a Kia Niro+ EV and HEV, and realised I'd never recoup the extra cost of the EV with my expected mileage and petrol costs. Yes, there are many variables - including the introduction of road tax for EVs, which is often conveniently ignored.

You also should include depreciation for a true TCO - I included it at 10% of new cost per year. It's hard to predict the actual rate - petrol price increases, electricity price increases, road tax and the falling price / increasing VFM of EVs will all have an impact.

There are some really good reasons to buy an EV, and my next car will probably be one, but the numbers currently do not stack up in terms of TCO

Scott3

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#3043081 28-Feb-2023 10:24

jonathan18:

That said, we should be thankful we got the 150kW version here - I’m amazed they’ve released the Enyaq in any market with 109kW: even with the smallest battery (55 kWh) it’ll still weigh a decent amount, as reflected in its 11.4 0-100 time. Man, I’d be tempted to go with an MG EV wagon rather than that spec Enyaq, if it was boot space I was after!

On boot space, should note that the Enyak iV really does excel.

In the informal Bannaba box test it fits 10 boxes in the boot.

Mg5 fits 8 (as do many Enyak iV competing SUV's): Arirya, EV6, E-Niro, MG ZS EV, Mustang Mach-e (which also fits one in the frunk)

The following fit 9: BMW iX3, ID4, ID5, Tesla model Y (which also fits one in the frunk)

Not much in the same class beat's it.

Ioniq 5 got 11 in the boot, but this was achieved by moving the rear seats forward a lot.

EQB got 12 in the boot, also by moving the back seats forward a lot.

Data here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/edit#gid=0

Just having looked up spec's of the EQB, probably one of the nearest competitors to the Enyaq iV. The EQB 2WD (FWD) is also fairly low powered at 140kW (8.9s 0-100), and the range is WLTP 371 km. On the plus side, it has a third row of seats, and at $99k, is in the same price range as teh Enyak for a proper luxury brand car. And it also comes in a much more powerful AWD version (6.2s 0-100) with 360km of rated range for $110k. Unless i really needed the 510km rated range of the EQB looks more attractive.

johno1234

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#3043135 28-Feb-2023 10:44

richms:

xlinknz:

if we purchased a new $36K HEV e.g. Corolla wagon HEV and we put that saved $36K the bank at 5% interest (can be locked at 5 years TD) that interest would pay the petrol per annum meaning the the HEV (or ICE) vehicle has a better TCO since we would have only spent 1/2 the cost of the Tesla

None of the EV TCO Calculators appear to consider that in many scenarios the cost difference if one banked the capital cost difference interest would pay the fossil fuel

Has anyone else considered that aspect of TCO?

But then you are driving a corolla?

You say that like it's a bad thing!

johno1234

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#3043137 28-Feb-2023 10:46

shk292:

xlinknz:

Hi all

We are on the brink of buying a new EV e.g. a Tesla Model Y @ $73K (less rebate)

Then we discovered an aspect of total cost of ownership (10 years) we had not previously realised.

if we purchased a new $36K HEV e.g. Corolla wagon HEV and we put that saved $36K the bank at 5% interest (can be locked at 5 years TD) that interest would pay the petrol per annum meaning the the HEV (or ICE) vehicle has a better TCO since we would have only spent 1/2 the cost of the Tesla

None of the EV TCO Calculators appear to consider that in many scenarios the cost difference if one banked the capital cost difference interest would pay the fossil fuel

Has anyone else considered that aspect of TCO?

Yes, it's why I recently didn't buy an EV, opting instead for a (non-plugin) hybrid.

I compared the costs of a Kia Niro+ EV and HEV, and realised I'd never recoup the extra cost of the EV with my expected mileage and petrol costs. Yes, there are many variables - including the introduction of road tax for EVs, which is often conveniently ignored.

You also should include depreciation for a true TCO - I included it at 10% of new cost per year. It's hard to predict the actual rate - petrol price increases, electricity price increases, road tax and the falling price / increasing VFM of EVs will all have an impact.

There are some really good reasons to buy an EV, and my next car will probably be one, but the numbers currently do not stack up in terms of TCO

Don't forget to include maintenance in the TCO. It is very low for BEV but for a PHEV it will probably be a little bit more than an ICE as two drive trains.

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shk292

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#3043142 28-Feb-2023 10:59

johno1234:

Don't forget to include maintenance in the TCO. It is very low for BEV but for a PHEV it will probably be a little bit more than an ICE as two drive trains.

Depends on the BEV (see recent controversy re BYD Atto3 servicing costs) and the HEV/ICE. We ended up buying a Honda Jazz HEV, and got them to include the 3-year servicing at very low cost. Happy so far, and it's had $177 worth of fuel pumped into it since delivery (with a full tank) in mid November

I do have some concern that the hybrid battery, going through many more charge cycles than an EV one, will expire within 5 years or so - but then it's much smaller than an EV battery so won't cost so much to replace

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#3043143 28-Feb-2023 11:00

heavenlywild: Good point but don't forget your resale value of your car may drop a lot more than an EV after 5 years as more people see EV as a viable option.

This, plus the single biggest cost of owning any vehicle is depreciation and in the case of the vehicle which will become redundant technology by the end of this decade depreciation will be particularly brutal.

One other factor though is that the rate of technological advancement of EVs will see both the new price of them reduce substantially as well as current models possibly becoming 'old tech' before they reach the end of their expected life. Basing TCO over an extended ownership period requires a degree of crystal ball gazing.

Increasing cost of electricity is also a questionable criticism as the whole question of economic viability of home generation (i.e. PV) must be factored into that scenario.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

shk292

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#3043152 28-Feb-2023 11:11

HarmLessSolutions:

Increasing cost of electricity is also a questionable criticism as the whole question of economic viability of home generation (i.e. PV) must be factored into that scenario.

I was including that as a factor based on the experience of a family member in UK with a (1st gen) MG ZS EV. The relatively short range of this vehicle, combined with high electricity price at home and more so at public chargers, means that for trips out of town it is often not cheaper to run than an ICE.

We're lucky in NZ with the very high proportion of renewable energy and moderate electricity pricing, so EVs make more sense here.

Obraik

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#3043160 28-Feb-2023 11:25

For me personally, an EV being cheaper to run than an ICE was not a priority consideration when I purchased my Model 3 three years ago. Rather, I much prefer the way an EV performs compared to an ICE, I like not having to faff around with visiting a petrol station on the way home from work once a week and I like not having to do yearly (or sometimes more frequently) fluid changes.

Being cheaper to run has been a perk.

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SaltyNZ

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#3043162 28-Feb-2023 11:28

Obraik:

For me personally, an EV being cheaper to run than an ICE was not a priority consideration when I purchased my Model 3 three years ago. Rather, I much prefer the way an EV performs compared to an ICE, I like not having to faff around with visiting a petrol station on the way home from work once a week and I like not having to do yearly (or sometimes more frequently) fluid changes.

Being cheaper to run has been a perk.

Come for the cheaper running costs, stay for the literally everything else.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

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#3043174 28-Feb-2023 11:55

Scott3:
On boot space, should note that the Enyak iV really does excel.

In the informal Bannaba box test it fits 10 boxes in the boot.

… The following fit 9: BMW iX3, ID4, ID5, Tesla model Y (which also fits one in the frunk)

Not much in the same class beat's it.

So, total banana (or bannaba?!) box capacity of the Enyaq is 10, as is the Model Y (given it actually has a frunk). Based on that I’m not losing that much capacity having elected for a Y ahead of a Enyaq (and we have found the Y more than capacious enough both in rear legroom and boot space). Obviously a bit less range but, in real-world impact, that’s not a biggie.

But I’ve also saved a huge amount of money (over $20k), I have a considerably faster accelerating and more powerful car, I get to use a user interface that’s highly regarded vs one that’s been panned by many…

In other words, I’m really struggling to find why anyone would buy an Enyaq, based on the specs/pricing of these NZ models. It’ll be interesting to see how many do.

wellygary

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#3043179 28-Feb-2023 12:12

shk292:

many more charge cycles than an EV one, will expire within 5 years or so - but then it's much smaller than an EV battery so won't cost so much to replace

Plenty of +5 year Priuses cruising the streets as Ubers in most CBDs .. I wouldn't worry about the battery

morrisk

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#3043182 28-Feb-2023 12:18

This discussion seems to have completely forgotten the reason that the world is changing to EVs - climate change. There will be a cost in doing this but there is certainly a cost if we don't do it.

Brings to mind the saying of knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Obraik

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#3043187 28-Feb-2023 12:31

morrisk:

This discussion seems to have completely forgotten the reason that the world is changing to EVs - climate change. There will be a cost in doing this but there is certainly a cost if we don't do it.

Brings to mind the saying of knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

Yeah, when we take into account the damage done to the environment (and health), ICE vehicles currently are heavily subsidised by the tax payer.

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