EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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Ultimate Geek
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#3070415 2-May-2023 12:59

billgates:

D1023319:

Please provide a source that shows how ebikes (or cycling for that matter) reduces congestion?
I ask because how do you know that ebikes and cyclists were previously driving vehicles and were not using pubic transport?
Hence their use undermines the PT for all

Source? Below is a photo of Amsterdam in 1970's before their cycling revolution. I bring ebike into equation of subsidies because unlike Amsterdam, which was built flat, most of NZ is not and the ebike flattens the roads.

Amsterdam Shifted from Cars to Bikes, How Can Other Cities Follow? - INKspire

your link didnt answer the question

1. As 32% of traffic movement in Amsterdam is by bike compared to 22% by car and 16% by public transport. In the city centre, 48% of traffic movement is by bike.
That would imply biking undermines the public transport system?
https://thingstodoinamsterdam.com/transport/cycling-in-amsterdam/

2. In 2018, the average Netherlands biking distance per person per day amounted to approximately 3.4 and 3 kilometers for men and women respectively.
Thats only a return journey from Railway station to Taranaki St - which is nowhere near the planned distances for Wellington cycle commuters
https://www.statista.com/statistics/620169/average-biking-distance-per-person-per-day-in-the-netherlands-by-gender/

Scott3

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#3070451 2-May-2023 13:40

wellygary:

Scott3:

I think a 2013 aqua is 86g, and a 2017 prius is 85g, so those used imports should still qualify too. (not quite sure if the numbers I am quoting are WLTP-3 conversions, would expect the tiny 3 cylinder yaris hybrid to beat the prius / aqua by some margen on economy.)

Suggest the above is by design. By allowing some high volume Japanese import's to get a token small rebate, it provides a political response to when concerns are raised about the amount of rebates going to "rich" tesla buyers... Actually the car model that has the most number of rebates claimed on it was the toyota aqua, so I reject the premise of that question....

The new rebate rates per g/km are here

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/vehicle/clean-car-programme/clean-car-discount-rebate-pricing.pdf
A Used Aqua @86g will now receive $1265

Under the former scheme is looks like 86g was a $1458 rebate
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/clean-car-programme/clean-car-discount/eligibility-criteria/

My beef with the changes are that they appear to be lowing the encouragement for these types of vehicles, If these are what the scheme is designed to encourage, why is the encouragement declining.....

Cheers for that.

Wow, $5750 for a Disability Hybrid vehicle (incl used...) They are pretty common common Toyota Sienta / Nissan Serena / Prius Alpha / Toyota Alphard, Aqua etc.

Is this really enough to justify $5750 of rebate? (a used EV minus the swivel seat gets thousands less)

Boon for the mobility vehicles industry. Guess winging to the media gets results...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/130966738/trying-to-keep-car-emissions-low-could-send-price-of-disability-vehicles-higher

Must say I am not knocking mobility vehicles in general. We had a Toyota Porte the below configuration for my late grandmother, and it made a massive difference to her and my grandfathers quality of life at the time.

I am just concerned that the swivel seat qualification is going to be a bit easy to game (substantially less impact on the vehicle than the slide out configuration which turns the car into a 3 seater.

And I am concerned that the government is picking technology winners. Why the blue car above (1.5L petrol rated 5.4L/100km) be less favored, than the car pictured below (2013 Toyota Estimate hybrid at 6.7L/100km). Largely the same slide out seat configuration, but the incentive favors the badge on the tailgate over actual fuel consumption.

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#3070482 2-May-2023 14:23

On the rebate / fee curves, I see that the curves have a big step when you move a single gram away from the zero band. A good idea I think, avoids the need to deal with trivially small rebates / fees.

https://www.transport.govt.nz/area-of-interest/environment-and-climate-change/clean-cars

Scott3

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#3070516 2-May-2023 14:47

evilengineer:

wellygary:

The new rebate rates per g/km are here

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/vehicle/clean-car-programme/clean-car-discount-rebate-pricing.pdf
A Used Aqua @86g will now receive $1265

Under the former scheme is looks like 86g was a $1458 rebate
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/clean-car-programme/clean-car-discount/eligibility-criteria/

My beef with the changes are that they appear to be lowing the encouragement for these types of vehicles, If these are what the scheme is designed to encourage, why is the encouragement declining.....

I don't really see how they are lowering the encouragement.

Yes, in pure dollar terms the rebate value has gone down but the price differential with the >100g petrol alternatives has gone up because they no longer get a rebate at all.

Yeah, this.

The absolutely most efficient hybrids (like the Yaris hybrid)'s rebate for a new car has dropped from $4294.66 to $2,645.00. But the rebate for a petrol Yaris has dropped from $2129.48 to $0. So for a person cross-shopping those two cars, the change makes the hybrid version about $400 more attractive than it was previously.

Obviously the overall cost of the car has gone up, but we don't want to be just subsiding small cars or motoring in general.

To pick another example, the Rav4 hybrid loses its $2387.24 rebate, but the petrol version picks up a fee (around $700). differential has decreased in this case, but there is still an incentive to pick the hybrid version.

Sadly overall without absolutely slamming high emissions vehicle buyers with fees it would not have been possible to keep paying out rebates for stuff like suzuki swifts auto's (122g co2).

--------------------------

Suzuki is going to be pissed by this change.

Currently their buyers are massively benefiting from the rebates from their high volume swift & Ignis models, and not paying fees on any models.

After this change they have no rebate eligible models (the mild hybrid swift at 106g co2/km is too inefficient to qualify), so much of their volume will be in the zero zone. In additon many of their buyers will need to start paying fees. Swift Sport, Vitara, S-Cross, Jimny...

Will be interesting to see if the if they throw their toys, and again threaten to pull out of the NZ market?

PolicyGuy

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#3070538 2-May-2023 15:45

Scott3:

Suzuki is going to be pissed by this change.

Currently their buyers are massively benefiting from the rebates from their high volume swift & Ignis models, and not paying fees on any models.

After this change they have no rebate eligible models (the mild hybrid swift at 106g co2/km is too inefficient to qualify), so much of their volume will be in the zero zone. In addition many of their buyers will need to start paying fees. Swift Sport, Vitara, S-Cross, Jimny...

Will be interesting to see if the if they throw their toys, and again threaten to pull out of the NZ market?

Or, they could wake up to the realities of the second decade of the twenty-first century and produce some modern vehicles, maybe?

The Japanese manufacturers are IMO all either late to market or too late to avoid irrelevance.
Toyota did an amazing job with being early to market with their hybrids, then fell asleep at the wheel. The others are at best just starting to scramble now or at worst just beginning to realise that their slow-paced planning has just been overtaken by events.

The next five to seven years is going to be an interesting period for the world wide car industry.

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#3070561 2-May-2023 17:34

I do wish the media (and opposition politicians) would stop calling Tesla Model 3/Ys “luxury cars” when referring to the amount of rebate paid out. The base model 2wd Tesla that qualifies for the rebate has vinyl seats, a singular display, no spare wheel, no mobile charger, an average sound system (M3), no cargo cover (MY). I have said multiple times they are $40K cars with a $30K battery fitted. The Model S and X are a different story, but then they don’t qualify for any rebate.

True luxury EVs, such as those from Jaguar, Audi, BMW and Mercedes are all north of $100K and don’t qualify for any rebate.

If “luxury” is based solely on purchase price, then things like the Ranger and Hilux are luxury vehicles.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#3070567 2-May-2023 18:02

Atto 3 is here. Do they have option for swivel seats?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/131915953/chinese-carmakers-ev-game-changer-spotted-in-auckland

Scott3

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#3070568 2-May-2023 18:05

PolicyGuy:

Scott3:

Suzuki is going to be pissed by this change.

Currently their buyers are massively benefiting from the rebates from their high volume swift & Ignis models, and not paying fees on any models.

After this change they have no rebate eligible models (the mild hybrid swift at 106g co2/km is too inefficient to qualify), so much of their volume will be in the zero zone. In addition many of their buyers will need to start paying fees. Swift Sport, Vitara, S-Cross, Jimny...

Will be interesting to see if the if they throw their toys, and again threaten to pull out of the NZ market?

Or, they could wake up to the realities of the second decade of the twenty-first century and produce some modern vehicles, maybe?

The Japanese manufacturers are IMO all either late to market or too late to avoid irrelevance.
Toyota did an amazing job with being early to market with their hybrids, then fell asleep at the wheel. The others are at best just starting to scramble now or at worst just beginning to realize that their slow-paced planning has just been overtaken by events.

The next five to seven years is going to be an interesting period for the world wide car industry.

Sorry, by Suzuki, I mean Suzuki NZ.

Really they are beholden to the product offering of their global parent. Once we cross July 1, that offering for NZ goes from pretty optimized for the clean car discount, to extremely lackluster for the clean car discount.

And in terms of Suzuki globally, it takes years to develop new products. They are locked into being a laggard on emissions for at least a few years.

Their mild hybrid swift is too inefficient to qualify for the rebate, unlike its peer the Yaris Hybrid. Even if you looked at model's not sold in NZ, like the Suzuki Swace Full Hybrid, suzuki would still miss out as that one is rated at 103g CO2/100km

And while the emissions of their SUV's (and swift sport) were good enough to avoid fees at the moment, come July 1 that is no longer the case.

Not much Suzuki NZ can do about this. Their parent company is not going to have a pure EV for them to sell until 2025. And they don't seem to even have decent Hybrid tech.

Suzuki's first electric vehicle has been revealed, due in 2025 | Stuff.co.nz

In the UK they sell a rebadged Rav4 Prime (PHEV). Perhaps they could bring some here, but is is extremely expensive compared to the rest of their product offering.

2021 Suzuki Across PHEV review - Automotive Daily

You are right it is going to be an interesting time for the global car industry.

In countries like NZ, Suzuki will need to scale down, and focus on it's strengths. I think it will still sell reasonable volumes of Ignis (extremely cheap, for those who want a new car, but don't want to spend yaris hybrid or BEV money), Swift (Funky styling, generally liked, still way cheaper than a yaris hybrid) & Jimny (great styling, and pritty much the only small, low range 4x4 on the market). But I think the (non hybrid) Vitara / vitara turbo / S-cross are going to struggle being flagged as high emitting cars (I suggest the label of a clean car fee may be more damaging than the fee itself.

I think it is wrong to use this as an example of an issue for Toyota. Toyota is well-placed at the moment. They have the only rebate-eligible new hybrid on the market, and could sell those in massive volume if they want to. Also, their corolla hybrid only just misses out on a rebate (at 101g), and that rating is done on 91 fuel. Toyota NZ might be able to have future shipments retuned for 95RON, or some other minor efficiency change like smooth wheels, to get it into the rebate range.

Their parent has lots more models they could launch (or relaunch in NZ) if they felt market conditions were right. Prius & aqua for example.

And they could relaunch the Prius Plug in (/Prime) here, and potentially launch the Rav4 PHEV (the lexus variant of that drive train is already here).

Not sure if NZ will get an allocation, but much as we might winge about spec's, Toyota does have the BZ4X in production.

All the rest of of their Car / Soft SUV lineup has hybrid versions that fit in the free band. Many of their competitors will be coping substantial fees. Most Notably the the 180kW Highlander Hybrid fits in the free band. For somebody cross shopping with say a Mazda CX-9 (211g CO2), they will need to consider a $4082.5 clean car fee on the latter (211-150)*57.5 + 575.

In the Low range 4x4 / Ute / Van segment, they are broadly in the same place as their mainstream competitors. LDV might take a handful of ute and van sales from Toyota, But people will keep buying Fortuner / Prado / LC70 / LC300 / Hilux / Hiace regardless. (and the starting point for Toyota is a long waitlist. And ever increasing emissions fees on such vehicles, will mean that people will want to get in early before the next hike, and owners will enjoy low depreciation as subsequent years cars get more expensive to buy new. And of course there will be a massive surge in each country prior to an ICE phase out.

In the performance space, Toyota NZ is selling low volumes anyway (with long wait lists). I think the people who want these cars will just pay up. current clean car fees havn't stopped toyota NZ from being sold out of its GR lineup.

Scott3

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#3070574 2-May-2023 18:14

Batman:

Atto 3 is here. Do they have option for swivel seats?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/131915953/chinese-carmakers-ev-game-changer-spotted-in-auckland

Dolphin spotted in Auckland:

The BYD Dolphin is expected to become the cheapest EV on sale in New Zealand when it launches later this year.

Wonder what the cost of having one of these fitted pre-registration would be?

www.braunability.eu/en/products/getting-seated/turnout/

My gut felling is that there is no way it would be cost effective.

But if the manufacturer did it, and sold every Atto 3 and / Or Dolphen into the NZ market as a mobility car, with a passenger swivel seat, that would likely be cost effective. Including it at build time would have a trivial cost.

HarmLessSolutions

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#3070575 2-May-2023 18:18

Hybrids are included in the CCR but how much will the cost be to them when they start being charged distance based RUCs next year? The way I see it is that EVs need to have distance based RUC but so will hybrids, and especially PHEVs or else they will dodge the tax by using their batteries solely. So then hybrids use petrol which has RUCs included in their fuel, so what about all cars reverting to a distance based system as diesels currently pay? Distance based RUCs can be levied automatically by way of a GPS system similar to eRoad used for fleet vehicles. No RUCs on petrol means boats, power tools and off road vehicles aren't unfairly charged a road tax and a bespoke RUC rate can be charged based on energy type with EVs enjoying cheap RUCs as an incentive.

How economical will hybrids be when they're paying RUCs?

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

Scott3

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#3070609 2-May-2023 19:56

HarmLessSolutions:

Hybrids are included in the CCR but how much will the cost be to them when they start being charged distance based RUCs next year? The way I see it is that EVs need to have distance based RUC but so will hybrids, and especially PHEVs or else they will dodge the tax by using their batteries solely. So then hybrids use petrol which has RUCs included in their fuel, so what about all cars reverting to a distance based system as diesels currently pay? Distance based RUCs can be levied automatically by way of a GPS system similar to eRoad used for fleet vehicles. No RUCs on petrol means boats, power tools and off road vehicles aren't unfairly charged a road tax and a bespoke RUC rate can be charged based on energy type with EVs enjoying cheap RUCs as an incentive.

How economical will hybrids be when they're paying RUCs?

Under current rules (non plug in petrol) hybrids do not need to pay RUC's, as all their energy is coming from petrol, which is taxed at source (i.e. per liter road tax is already included by the time you fill your tank).

BEV's & PHEV are both temporally exempt from RUC's.

If the current exemption was allowed to lapse, they would both become liable to pay RUC's, as is the case for vehicles using Diesel, Hydrogen and any other fuel that is not taxed at source (In addition to petrol, automotive LPG & Automotive CNG (if anybody still sells that) are taxed at source).

As the rules currently stand, If PHEV's become liable to pay RUC's, they would be able to claim back the road tax in any petrol they use. Same deal as with USA sourced RV's (campervan's), with giant petrol engines, but because they weigh more than 3500kg, need to Pay RUC's instead.

Process to do this is via the MR70 form:

https://www.transport.govt.nz/about-us/what-we-do/queries/buying-a-light-vehicle/

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/assets/resources/factsheets/14/docs/mr70-excise-refund-form.pdf

So if the EV RUC exemption is allowed to lapse in it's current form, non plug in hybrids are in for a major win. Something like a Yaris hybrid will be paying roughly 1/3rd of the road tax of an EV. This make a leaf more expensive to run than a Yaris. Ultra-commuters will start ditching their EV's, and buying aqua's etc...

Of course, there are some major issues with letting the EV RUC exemption lapse in it's current form:

The above outlines issue, where EV's are no longer the cheapest vehicle to run so people start buying yaris hybrids to replace them is perverse to the goal of reducing emissions, and dependence on imported oil.
PHEV's would generate an epic amount of paperwork via MR70 forms. Would be pretty easy to defraud too. Just say the fuel you put in your boat / other car was used in the PHEV...
In absence of cheaper running costs it is hard to justify the price premium of an EV, so sales will drop.

Your proposal of RUC's to go on all vehicles, and petrol road tax removed, is probably the best option, but is not without issues:

Hybrid car owners (espeically the taxi industry) are going to scream blue murder about their running costs going up. I can imagine it now... We did what we thought was the right thing for the environment by moving our taxi company to all hybrid, but now the government is shafting us...
Ending the unfair application of road tax on off road users will mean on road users will need to pony up more to cover the lost revenue from the likes of recreational boaties. I think this is not negligible, and worth a few percentage points.
Challenges around lumpiness & administration of RUC's by those on the poverty line. With petrol vehicles generally being cheaper, this group has been forced into a nice, uncheatable prepay road tax scheme, that can handle small increments. Put $20 of petrol in the car, and it is fine. Minimum RUC block is 1000km I think, and it comes with admin fees per transaction, so it is better to pay up a years worth in one hit.
Current avoidance issues around diesel RUC's (switches on odometer cables etc.) will now apply to all vehicles. And if you think this is unworkable in modern vehicles, there is a russian app for the nissan leaf that allows (on payment of a fee to the developer) for the odometer to be set to whatever you want.
V8 drivers will rejoice, along with those that tow big trailers with petrol vehicles. Their running costs just went way down. Not what you want in a climate change emergency.
Would be better to integrate to congestion charging, but that has it's own issues

All up I expect the next government will just kick the can down the road again, by extending the EV exemption.

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#3070610 2-May-2023 20:03

Watched the Newshub article on the clean car discount change. Bit of a mess really.

Simply stated the "ute tax" was the upper cap of the scheme, rather than actually working out the fee the example ranger in their article would need to pay.

Played up the urban vs rural / tradie thing hard.

Pretty much ignored any EV that wasn't a tesla. No mention of BEV Ute and Van options already on the market.

Stated that no sub $15k cars would be eligible for the rebate. I think the Toyota aqua will continue to qualify.

HarmLessSolutions

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#3070629 2-May-2023 20:22

A well thought out reply and some aspects there I hadn't considered. So far as the issue of fraud is concerned a GPS monitored system similar to that of eRoad would take the vehicle's speedo out of the equation and is possible by way of an OBD dongle in most modern vehicles, or a dashtop unit as used for road toll monitoring in VIC AU would serve the purpose. Fees could then be charged/paid on a monthly or against a prepaid balance which would take the over the counter kerfuffle out of the mix and ease the burden of a large minimum charge scenario. GPS monitoring would generate some 'big brother' squeals but that's the breaks. Such a system could also implement local charges such as city congestion charges.

The current CCR system is emissions loaded so not hard to migrate those details across for larger engined ICEs though the trailer/heavy laden scenario is a tricky one.

Comments from attendees of Americarna recently were of a distance based RUC system across the board but the proof will be in what is announced in readiness for next April when the EV RUC holiday is scheduled to end, and of course we have the possible disruptions an election may cause. Time will tell.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

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#3070631 2-May-2023 20:29

Scott3:

Watched the Newshub article on the clean car discount change. Bit of a mess really.

Simply stated the "ute tax" was the upper cap of the scheme, rather than actually working out the fee the example ranger in their article would need to pay.

Played up the urban vs rural / tradie thing hard.

Pretty much ignored any EV that wasn't a tesla. No mention of BEV Ute and Van options already on the market.

Stated that no sub $15k cars would be eligible for the rebate. I think the Toyota aqua will continue to qualify.

Industry comment I heard today was that incoming BYD Dolphin (and possibly Seagull) will cause huge drops in new EV pricing to the extent that the 2nd hand Leaf imports will become unviable. A BYD Seagull at this sort of price will make the CCR a bit of a joke and even without it will allow the less monied to enjoy EV ownership. Sure it is still doubtful whether BYD can bring this into NZ but the way prices are moving on Chinese cars something similar will get here sooner or later.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

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#3070682 3-May-2023 06:16

The Dolphin will be a bit of a game-changer. BYD's biggest stumbling block is itself at the moment, with the interior design and questions over rust-proofing and general wear. Both are merely a matter of time until people have enough confidence in them. If I'd known my Leaf was going to take so long to get here, I would have bought an Atto 3.

The Leaf remains an excellent city car with lots of cameras and a decent turning circle. It really is just an LFP battery and Type 2 (or at least 100kw Chademo) away from being a perfectly modern EV. Almost all of my gripes with it (steering column, seating position, lack of hotted up GTI-R model) are easily able to be solved with a simple model refresh. But the battery remains the biggest problem.

Perhaps in the fullness of time we will see a subsidy for battery replacements/upgrades? Who knows at this point. Wonder how EVs Enhanced are getting on. That kind of thing is possibly better to be done as part of a solar rollout or similar.

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