The case for transitioning away from (was: banning) diesel: It hurts you and especially your kids.

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › The case for transitioning away from (was: banning) diesel: It hurts you and especially your kids.

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MikeB4
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#1602744 2-Aug-2016 10:37

Linuxluver:

Coincidentally, here is a major move just announced to move logs to port in Wellington by rail rather than by truck.

Extract:

CentrePort is owned by Greater Wellington Regional Council, whose chairman, Chris Laidlaw, was delighted with this development.

"This is a really progressive initiative, it gets logs off the roads and there will be a substantial drop in overall emissions," he said.

"It will reduce congestion and it raises the question as to how much better can we use rail networks."

Better off logging and doing the value add closer to forests and in our own country. Also we could stop the lunacy of clear felling and start selective sustainable logging and help improve our air.

Logs are ok on a train, it's a tad difficult to steal a log off a wagon in the goods/shunting yard and it's hard for NZ Rail to break the logs.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeAqua

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#1602796 2-Aug-2016 11:53

TwoSeven:
There have been electric trucks in the past, and even with old technology worked quite well. Electric vehicles tend to be designed for purpose. For example the old English milk float was a battery electric vehicle, it didn't need to move quickly.

Electric vehicles today don't use the same design and components, so any additional weight from batteries is offset by not having the weight of the engine and drive train. Also, instead of being BEV design, trucks are often use different electricity generation methods.

Ye Olde English Milk Float - perfect EV application. Light load, short distances, low speed, stopping often. It wouldn't be a heavy vehicle in NZ [edit: (6,000kg or more)]

Step up to a medium sized (~25T) rigid bodied truck, suitable for urban distribution. This type of truck is physically large enough to carry 20ft containers which can weigh up to 21 Tonnes.

Compare the Mercedes e-truck EV to the diesel vehicle (DV) it is based on, over an 8 hour shift.

The EV has a range of ~200km (assume 5 hours urban driving) with a payload of 11T. Then it needs a 1.5 hour charge. Effectively You can use each vehicle for one charge cycle per 8 hour shift. Freight moving capacity is 2,200 Tonne-km during an 8 hour shift.

The DV has more than enough fuel in the tank for a full shift of urban driving and a payload of 15T (Merc specs). Assuming 7.5 hours of driving in an 8 hour shift the freight moving capacity is 4,500 Tonne-km. The DV moves twice as much freight in an 8 hour shift.

It's no contest.

Mike

MikeAqua

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#1602804 2-Aug-2016 12:07

Linuxluver:

Coincidentally, here is a major move just announced to move logs to port in Wellington by rail rather than by truck.

That's great, but: -

How are tracks built to access the forest?

How are the logs conveyed after felling to the skid site?

How are the logs loaded onto transport at the skid site?

How are the logs conveyed from the skid site to the nearest train station which could be 50km away?

The EV is iOS. Diesel is Linux.

Mike

old3eyes

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#1602841 2-Aug-2016 12:39

MikeAqua:

Linuxluver:

Coincidentally, here is a major move just announced to move logs to port in Wellington by rail rather than by truck.

That's great, but: -

How are tracks built to access the forest?

How are the logs conveyed after felling to the skid site?

How are the logs loaded onto transport at the skid site?

How are the logs conveyed from the skid site to the nearest train station which could be 50km away?

The EV is iOS. Diesel is Linux.

They can always go back to how they did it 100 years ago by what was called a log tram. Rail lines laid to the work face and logs hauled from there to the rail head.. Worked then why not now??

Linuxluver's post is good news for the motorist . At least trains don't jump out and take out motorists or lose their loads on the corners. Now just wish they would to the same on the Kaimias heading to Tauranga,.

Regards,

Old3eyes

tdgeek

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#1602844 2-Aug-2016 12:43

raytaylor:

MadEngineer:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=obS6TUVSZds

"Solar Roadways Are bull#*#*"

I was going to say you had to show me that and ruin a good thing.

I watched the video and he seems to gloss over a few things.

1) Power production would be maintained with road cleaning just like they are now except they could probably just blast the surface with air and clean it effectively.

2) LED light wastage. I think practical useage would be to continue painting lines under the surface rather than running LEDs during the day. He also seems to be calculating using a very high wattage LED.

3) LED light viewing angle. The surface is 15mm+ thick. There is enough space in there to tilt an LED so it is aimed at oncoming traffic. We have solar powered catseyes in hawkes bay now - just like solar garden lights in a catseye formfactor and they work really really well - and I would assume they consume less than 0.1 watts.

4) Grid connection is possible. The number of microinverters wouldnt need to be as many as he says - each micro inverter could do up to 500 watts or more depending upon the design.
Cable efficiency is another concern he seems to have. He mentions that they will run at 110 or 240v when in fact they could connect to a 400v Bus and sync the AC cycles. AC is very easy to raise and lower the voltage for increased efficiency.

5) There isnt much networking that really needs to be done. Down that same bus, they can send data which is decoded to switch on and off certain LED signs. Specific tiles can be used - one might be solar only, one might form part of a sign and cost slightly more when needed. If there is a sign that needs to be switched on and off it can be controlled by sending a data signal down the bus just like your hot water control at home.

6) Heating is going to be more difficult, and only needed for a few select areas. In those areas, they may want to use a dual bus system so there are increased efficencies (less amps per bus) and power can be bought in from down the road further to heat the units for a few hours each day as required.

Networking - I dont think each unit needs to be networked - rather they can be grouped together and save on repeating components on each cell.

Following on from your first post, I like the idea of a solar panel body. F1 uses a hybrid engine these days, V6 1.6litre, and an electric unit that harvests during braking. That works, to the tune of 160 BHP for a good length of a lap. So on a small scale add any potential means to vehicles. Same for houses, to get as much energy from the Sun as is feasible, taking the load of the grid, and aiming for a hydro only grid. I think NZ is 80% renewable on the grid right now?

Sidestep

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#1602848 2-Aug-2016 12:44

Linuxluver:

Coincidentally, here is a major move just announced to move logs to port in Wellington by rail rather than by truck.

And that's a nice example of the success of incremental change - and the use of taxpayer's money to make a project by private enterprise partners viable.
Rail shines in moving bulk freight over a fixed route, the recent construction of a series of Inland Ports leverages heavy rail's potential to connect New Zealand's main centres & sea ports.
Of course all the logging equipment and trucks used as feeders for the inland Port are diesel, the rail engines are diesel (actually diesel-electric) though the newer DL “Chinese” ones are more efficient and less polluting.
Cause that's existing, tested technology & the only viable way it can be done right now. But a situation's been created where bulk freight's being consolidated onto rail, and in future electrification may an option.

Rather than “ban” things, I reckon the key's to instead use direct investment, subsidies and adjustments of the taxation levers to encourage change.

Home Solar/Distributed generation, electric vehicles, all could/should be encouraged by sweetening the pot.

The success of the UFB and RBI internet intiatives gives me hope.
Rather than saying 'we'll encourage faster rural internet by 'banning dial up' the government decided to invest taxpayer's money - with private enterprise partners - on new infrastructure.
A project with clear, achievable goals, that used existing technology to benefit most all New Zealanders.

In this rail case decent local body Regional Strategy decisions and a $4 ½ billion Government Kiwirail revival plan helped.

Coincidentally, at the other end of the Island, New Zealand's newest State Highway (SH15) came into being yesterday.
A new 120km inland freight route wholly dedicated to trucking logs to Marsden Point.
I really hope the Government fixes the North Auckland line next and builds the last few miles to Northport.

New World

Shop on-line at New World now for your groceries (affiliate link).

Sidestep

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#1602883 2-Aug-2016 13:33

old3eyes:

They can always go back to how they did it 100 years ago by what was called a log tram. Rail lines laid to the work face and logs hauled from there to the rail head.. Worked then why not now??

Linuxluver's post is good news for the motorist . At least trains don't jump out and take out motorists or lose their loads on the corners. Now just wish they would to the same on the Kaimias heading to Tauranga,.

No, the situation's completely different.
Rather than mining away at an old growth forest of gigantic 1000 year old trees, a lot of modern plantation timber's patches of similar sized trees, spread out across the countryside.

It's often at the rear of rural properties, land that was too marginal - poor, steep, inaccessible - to be farmed.
A lot was planted around the same time, and is ready for harvest now, due to govt policy 25 years ago (subsidies, tax breaks) aimed at bringing in that unused land.
So an assesor/purchaser shows up, looks at your pines, makes you an offer, operators cut an access road in, harvest it out, and they're gone. It's all over in a flash.
You replant so you'll have another crop ready 25 years from now.

And it's happening on hundreds of farms at the same time. So a couple of trucks join the feeder routes from a farm here, a plantation there, and suddenly there's a wall of wood moving down the main roads.

Plenty of logs ride the train to Tauranga. The Kaimais would be a complete logjam otherwise.

MikeAqua

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#1602889 2-Aug-2016 13:38

Sidestep:

Plenty of logs ride the train to Tauranga. The Kaimais would be a complete logjam otherwise.

This pun deserves recognition.

Mike

MikeB4

MikeB4
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#1602892 2-Aug-2016 13:43

MikeAqua:

Sidestep:

Plenty of logs ride the train to Tauranga. The Kaimais would be a complete logjam otherwise.

This pun deserves recognition.

That pun had my stomach in a knot, it really goes against the grain but at least the thread branched out.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeAqua

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#1602908 2-Aug-2016 13:57

old3eyes:

They can always go back to how they did it 100 years ago by what was called a log tram. Rail lines laid to the work face and logs hauled from there to the rail head.. Worked then why not now??

Linuxluver's post is good news for the motorist . At least trains don't jump out and take out motorists or lose their loads on the corners. Now just wish they would to the same on the Kaimias heading to Tauranga,.

You harvest from a wide arc to a central skid site, generally using a skidder or a hauler. The truck hauls over often steep terrain to the road and then to a port/mill/rail head etc.

A lot of the country is quite difficult. You couldn't economically lay down tracks to haul out pine trees in most places. Maybe you could in some flat areas like Kaiangaroa and Canterbury.

If you spend some time driving heavy vehicles you will find far more cars jump out if front of trucks than vice versa. I would also suggest far more cars lose control on corners than trucks.

Mike

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#1602971 2-Aug-2016 14:24

sxz:

Is diesel more unhealthy? You don't appear to have included any data on that.

Diesel exhaust (mostly in poorly maintained vehicles) contains 3-nitrobenzanthrone which is a potent carcinogen. It produced the highest score ever reported in the Ames test, a standard measure of the cancer-causing potential of toxic chemicals, far greater than the previous known strongest (1,8-dinitropyrene, which is also found in diesel exhaust).

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k1wi

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#1603272 3-Aug-2016 00:29

If it's a case of transitioning away from diesel, rather than the initially proposed banning, I'm supportive of that.

The questions become: what is the timeline that society would take to transition away without any interventions, how much are we prepared to pay (and who is it borne by) in order to accelerate that transition and are our solutions better than the status quo? (After all, diesel was really heavily promoted for its environmental qualities in places like the EU, even though the issue of particulates has been well known for a long time).

jaymz

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#1603497 3-Aug-2016 12:42

I think the best answer to this whole debate is this:

Invest in "The Smog Free Project"

https://www.studioroosegaarde.net/project/smog-free-project/info/

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/06/why-turning-smog-into-diamonds-isn-t-as-crazy-as-it-sounds/

Rather than process through the minefield of regulation changes, inconvenience for those rely on the use of diesel in the workplace and the time it would take to implement these changes. Why don't we simply tackle the true issue here - Human Health issues caused by smog

Pop a few of these towers around the major cities and budda-bing, budda-boom, the situation has begun to improve.

Reliance on fossil fuels is always going to be a problem and as resources get depleted change will come. But technology has not reached a point where alternatives are as cheap or as readily accessible as fossil fuel is for the general public.

Aredwood

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#1603980 4-Aug-2016 00:44

The very first thing that should be done is to reform the electricity market. As currently alot of "uneconomic bypass" is occurring. Big example in Auckland at least is lots of electric hot water cylinders being ripped out and replaced with LPG infinity water heaters. Because they are cheaper than using electricity. (No night rate apart from Flick electric in Auckland) And often LPG heating can also be cheaper than using electricity (at least compared to plug in heaters). As LPG in the 45KG bottles equates to about 16.4C per kW/hr. (Again there is Flick Electric, but Flick isn't that cheap during peak times)

Have also setup a friends place with a Rinnai Convector unflued LPG heater running off a 45KG bottle. Sure not ideal, but better than being freezing cold due to not being able to afford electricity. His family have been forced onto Globug due to getting behind on the power bill. LPG definitely cheaper than Globug. And the 5.8kW Rinnai Convector actually warms the open plan lounge.

Summary - Stupid charging systems means it is cheaper to burn fossil fuels than use mostly renewable electricity. Lines charges should be billed based on peak capacity instead of a surcharge added onto the energy cost of electricity. Would also make it cheaper to charge electric cars.

Then there is the local primary school, which uses a coal boiler to run it's central heating system. (built in 60s) Even diesel is cleaner than coal. And local intermediate school - uses a diesel boiler. (built in 80s) Pretty sure neither have any particulate filters fitted. So any moves to reduce diesel usage should target fixed heating applications first. As these can normally be easily done with LPG or any number of other heating methods.

Also another issue with current lithium battery technology - You can't safely recharge them if the cell temp is below 0deg. if you do there is a risk that the lithium alloys will separate out to pure lithium. Which is extremely dangerous. And if you use the heater in a electric car - that uses battery power that could have otherwise been used to propel the car. At least the heater in a petrol / diesel car uses energy that would have otherwise been wasted.

gzt

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#1603981 4-Aug-2016 01:04

Prius and Leaf (for examples) are sold in European markets where temperature is regularly well below zero. I assume that one is solved in one form or another.

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