Why is driver training being ignored? Aw

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#2155648 7-Jan-2019 10:52

With regards to some of the enforcement discussion, I think the 41km/h threshold for instant loss of licence should be reduced. The consequences are a bit mild, unless you've got an interesting car that the police take a closer look at, or you annoy them. For example, the $30 fines I've heard of, what's the point, it should be $80 just for the officers time.

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#2155662 7-Jan-2019 11:08

MikeB4:

With the driving we experienced while travelling of christmas it is obvious that NZ has a serious problem on our roads and it is not tourists. Training will not help as ALL licensed drivers were trained enough to pass the written test and to pass the driving test thus knowing and obeying the road rules. There is a terible attitude on our roads that wont be altered by training. No matter what courses the recidivist bad driver and offender does it will not change that, we need to have much tougher sanctions for the recidivist offenders that the courts must impose such as permanent driving bans, imprisonment for repeat offenders, seizing and crushing motor vehicles. There also needs to be penalties for those persons that knowingly allow a suspended or banned driver to drive including loss of their motor vehicle and imprisonment if the banned driver has an injury causing or fatal accident.

Permanent driving bans don't really exist as an option in law. There's indefinite disqualification and, in theory, you can't get your licence back until you can prove to the director of the NZTA that you can drive safely. But this isn't going to stop the absolute tosspot who will drive without a licence. IMO, we need to seriously consider preventive detention (i.e. locking these people up in prison indefinitely until they prove that they are no longer a threat to society) for the recidivist dangerous and drink drivers.

But none of this will solve the issue that plenty of your average "Hardworking Kiwi" (just see some of the postings in this thread) drive like total morons. And these people are mostly males -- the fixes needed go well beyond just enforcement, sanctions and education.

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#2155664 7-Jan-2019 11:12

MikeB4:

frankv:

I believe that the fixed speed limit actually decreases road safety. In the absence of a speed limit, people have to judge for themselves what is safe and what is not. When a speed limit is set, people don't think about whether this is safe or not, they just drive at that speed. I believe that is the cause of the Montana Speed Limit Paradox where accidents decreased when speed limits were removed, and increased when they were reinstated.

The NZTA is locked into the same mindset: they put up signs saying "Reduce your speed to meet the conditions" but NOT "Increase your speed when conditions are good". The inherent assumption (and implied message) is that it's normal for people to drive at the speed limit.

The speed of a vehicle is only one factor affecting the safety of a vehicle at a particular point in time, but it is rigidly enforced. Because it is a very convenient and easy thing to detect, it has become the focus of enforcement activity. There's essentially no enforcement of vehicle following distances, for example, despite tailgating being a major cause of accidents. There's no law at all, let alone enforcement, around fatigue and sleep for car drivers, despite this being a major cause of accidents.

With the NZ attitude to driving and zero respect for other road users this would create absolute carnage. NZ drivers would see this as an open license to do as they pleased and bugger everyone else. I still cannot understand folks blindness to the FACT, the greater the speed the greater the mess. As I said earlier the speed may not always cause an incident but it makes avoiding it a whole lot harder and when the incident occurs the carnage is greater. It is not a hard concept to understand.

Our roads are barely up to managing 80kph safely let alone 100kph. Example we drove fraom Masterton to Castlepoint last week this a narrow road with one lane bridges, corners with sideroads and farm entrances hidden and a very uneven road surface, the post legal maximum is 100kph. The speed limit on this road should be 80kph or less.

But the speed limit isn't a target; drive at the speed that feels safe (which is probably less than 80km/h). Why does the limit need to reflect that? I drove over the Hunderlees last month, and they have lowered the limit to 80km/h since I last drove there. But it's so windy that only a lunatic who wouldn't be bothered by the speed limit anyway would try to drive over 80, so it's a bit pointless.

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#2155671 7-Jan-2019 11:22

Coil:

Speed is not the issue... Everyone just keeps going back to speed speed speed speed. I also do 55-60 in some Urban routes when the limit maybe 50, I go with the flow of traffic.
Like you said at the start, Driver training. In Germany they have the Autobahn with no speed limit in some areas, their roads are far safer than ours and have a lower road toll. Weird about this whole speed thing..

Oh thats right, They have intensive driver training and absurd penalties if you act up.

And they can have much tougher licence tests in Germany (and Denmark, the other example raised earlier) because they have reasonable alternatives in those countries - decent public transport and established cycling cultures. Outside of the three main centres in NZ there is essentially no practical public transport (and even in the three main centres it is nowhere up to the standards you'd find in Europe). I can't find statistics on number of licences in those countries but here is a list of vehicles per capita - even in car-loving Germany (where they only introduced time-limited licences five years ago, to bring them into line with EU law) car ownership is far lower than in NZ. It's just necessary here for so many people.

If the government/NZTA tried to bring in a Danish-style licensing regime here a huge number of people would no longer be able to get to work, and the country's productivity would probably fall through the floor - i.e. an economic disaster.

So instead the government focuses on the sticking-plaster (and largely ineffective) options (as others discuss above).

MikeB4

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#2155672 7-Jan-2019 11:23

TinyTim:

MikeB4:

frankv:

I believe that the fixed speed limit actually decreases road safety. In the absence of a speed limit, people have to judge for themselves what is safe and what is not. When a speed limit is set, people don't think about whether this is safe or not, they just drive at that speed. I believe that is the cause of the Montana Speed Limit Paradox where accidents decreased when speed limits were removed, and increased when they were reinstated.

The NZTA is locked into the same mindset: they put up signs saying "Reduce your speed to meet the conditions" but NOT "Increase your speed when conditions are good". The inherent assumption (and implied message) is that it's normal for people to drive at the speed limit.

The speed of a vehicle is only one factor affecting the safety of a vehicle at a particular point in time, but it is rigidly enforced. Because it is a very convenient and easy thing to detect, it has become the focus of enforcement activity. There's essentially no enforcement of vehicle following distances, for example, despite tailgating being a major cause of accidents. There's no law at all, let alone enforcement, around fatigue and sleep for car drivers, despite this being a major cause of accidents.

With the NZ attitude to driving and zero respect for other road users this would create absolute carnage. NZ drivers would see this as an open license to do as they pleased and bugger everyone else. I still cannot understand folks blindness to the FACT, the greater the speed the greater the mess. As I said earlier the speed may not always cause an incident but it makes avoiding it a whole lot harder and when the incident occurs the carnage is greater. It is not a hard concept to understand.

Our roads are barely up to managing 80kph safely let alone 100kph. Example we drove fraom Masterton to Castlepoint last week this a narrow road with one lane bridges, corners with sideroads and farm entrances hidden and a very uneven road surface, the post legal maximum is 100kph. The speed limit on this road should be 80kph or less.

But the speed limit isn't a target; drive at the speed that feels safe (which is probably less than 80km/h). Why does the limit need to reflect that? I drove over the Hunderlees last month, and they have lowered the limit to 80km/h since I last drove there. But it's so windy that only a lunatic who wouldn't be bothered by the speed limit anyway would try to drive over 80, so it's a bit pointless.

Exactly, however there are so many drivers in NZ that feel that if you drive at say 90 or 95kph on a 100kph road you are ruining their lives. They also feel that saving a minute or two over a 1 hour drive is absolutely life changing. They see a 100 sign and interpret that as saying 110 or 120.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#2155673 7-Jan-2019 11:24

Coil:

Linuxluver:

But where everyone is let down is enforcement.

There I am, out doing my drivers test.....and you can't go over the spped limit, which is mostly 50kph. Virtually all the OTHER drivers are doing well over 50kph and some are aggressively impatient.

In that environment, any driving student will un-learn recommended behaviours almost by sunset on the day they pass their test.

It's a waste to have police everywhere......so I'm thinking the only way out of this is to geo-lock the maximum speed any car can do. If people won't stay within the speed limit by themselves.....they'll have to have imposed by other means.

All the money spent on driver training is greatly devalued by allowing - and SUPPORTING - other drivers' to ignore the speed limits.

Speed is not the issue... Everyone just keeps going back to speed speed speed speed.

...

There are these signs along the side of the road. They tell you the maximum speed. If you don't respect those signs then you're a BIG part of the problem.

Speed IS the issue where speed limits and driver training are concerned.

New drivers and elderly drivers can safely proceed at those speeds. You clearly think you're special and ignore all that and do wht you like.

But your attitude is a big part of why people are going faster than they should be....and winning the Crash Lotto.

I know you won't ever want to see that because it suits you not to. The police don't agree with you.....for what it's worth.

The roads are for everyone....not just people who give themselves a free pass just because.

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#2155675 7-Jan-2019 11:25

dejadeadnz: Here comes the usual “The law is optional; I obey it when I feel like it!” ravings from the self-anointed great drivers. Yawn. If you are going to speed, it’s far more dangerous to speed in urban roads. Kids run into the road; pedestrians don’t always cross the road where they should. There’s a reason why the local councils are actively looking at lowering the speeds in some urban areas. Coil, the 21st century just called you and you missed it.

Couldn't agree more.

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#2155678 7-Jan-2019 11:31

tdgeek:

Id like to see instant penalties. Speed camera, deducts $x that night. Get pulled over, bank account deduction that night, if not right then, "EFTPOS card please sir" Break the psychological barrier. Its like buying on a creditcard is easy, no pain for many people. Paying cash now is a pain for many people, make a traffic offence the same as buying and paying for something right now. Give a reverse discount. Same offence within 3 months, add 50%

This happened to my brother and I in Michigan (US) in 1986. My brother is a one-knee-on-the-wheel-while-reading while speeding sort of guy....and we got pulled over within half an hour of crossing the border from Canada.

The state trooper with his lemon-squeezer hat was demanding cash for an instant fine or we could all go back to the station with him and arrange a court date. My brother only had Canadian cash. The cop wasn't interested. I'd made my brother stop just before the bridge and got $100 US cash because "you never know" (I knew).

I handed over the cash and away we went....and I drove the rest of the way. To the speed limit. (If they catch you a second time the fine is much bigger). The rest of the 700km drive was "stately".

The American cops don't mess around: "You broke the law.....be quiet. Pay the fine."

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TinyTim

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#2155679 7-Jan-2019 11:32

MikeB4:

TinyTim:

But the speed limit isn't a target; drive at the speed that feels safe (which is probably less than 80km/h). Why does the limit need to reflect that? I drove over the Hunderlees last month, and they have lowered the limit to 80km/h since I last drove there. But it's so windy that only a lunatic who wouldn't be bothered by the speed limit anyway would try to drive over 80, so it's a bit pointless.

Exactly, however there are so many drivers in NZ that feel that if you drive at say 90 or 95kph on a 100kph road you are ruining their lives. They also feel that saving a minute or two over a 1 hour drive is absolutely life changing. They see a 100 sign and interpret that as saying 110 or 120.

So I guess on roads like Masterton to Castlepoint, it's usually quiet enough that that sort of behaviour is not an issue, while over the Hunderlees it is.

tdgeek

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#2155688 7-Jan-2019 11:50

TinyTim:

MikeB4:

TinyTim:

But the speed limit isn't a target; drive at the speed that feels safe (which is probably less than 80km/h). Why does the limit need to reflect that? I drove over the Hunderlees last month, and they have lowered the limit to 80km/h since I last drove there. But it's so windy that only a lunatic who wouldn't be bothered by the speed limit anyway would try to drive over 80, so it's a bit pointless.

Exactly, however there are so many drivers in NZ that feel that if you drive at say 90 or 95kph on a 100kph road you are ruining their lives. They also feel that saving a minute or two over a 1 hour drive is absolutely life changing. They see a 100 sign and interpret that as saying 110 or 120.

So I guess on roads like Masterton to Castlepoint, it's usually quiet enough that that sort of behaviour is not an issue, while over the Hunderlees it is.

Sounds like you are using the speed limit as a target? Hundalees is 80kph, with suggested safe speeds on the bends. Clearly there are stretches of road where you would not go at 80k, and some that you can. You cannot have suggested or legal speed limit signs every 50 metres for the length of the Hundalee drive time.

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#2155724 7-Jan-2019 12:08

Linuxluver:
tdgeek:

Id like to see instant penalties. Speed camera, deducts $x that night. Get pulled over, bank account deduction that night, if not right then, "EFTPOS card please sir" Break the psychological barrier. Its like buying on a creditcard is easy, no pain for many people. Paying cash now is a pain for many people, make a traffic offence the same as buying and paying for something right now. Give a reverse discount. Same offence within 3 months, add 50%

This happened to my brother and I in Michigan (US) in 1986. My brother is a one-knee-on-the-wheel-while-reading while speeding sort of guy....and we got pulled over within half an hour of crossing the border from Canada.

The state trooper with his lemon-squeezer hat was demanding cash for an instant fine or we could all go back to the station with him and arrange a court date. My brother only had Canadian cash. The cop wasn't interested. I'd made my brother stop just before the bridge and got $100 US cash because "you never know" (I knew).

I handed over the cash and away we went....and I drove the rest of the way. To the speed limit. (If they catch you a second time the fine is much bigger). The rest of the 700km drive was "stately".

The American cops don't mess around: "You broke the law.....be quiet. Pay the fine."

Agreed. Policing here is so touchy feely it's almost pointless sometimes.

I gave up watching Police 10-7 because it raises my blood pressure too much watching expensive police staff and vehicle being used as an unpaid taxi service for drunk cretins whilst other cretins place people's lives in danger on the road.

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#2155725 7-Jan-2019 12:08

Linuxluver:
tdgeek:

Id like to see instant penalties. Speed camera, deducts $x that night. Get pulled over, bank account deduction that night, if not right then, "EFTPOS card please sir" Break the psychological barrier. Its like buying on a creditcard is easy, no pain for many people. Paying cash now is a pain for many people, make a traffic offence the same as buying and paying for something right now. Give a reverse discount. Same offence within 3 months, add 50%

This happened to my brother and I in Michigan (US) in 1986. My brother is a one-knee-on-the-wheel-while-reading while speeding sort of guy....and we got pulled over within half an hour of crossing the border from Canada.

The state trooper with his lemon-squeezer hat was demanding cash for an instant fine or we could all go back to the station with him and arrange a court date. My brother only had Canadian cash. The cop wasn't interested. I'd made my brother stop just before the bridge and got $100 US cash because "you never know" (I knew).

I handed over the cash and away we went....and I drove the rest of the way. To the speed limit. (If they catch you a second time the fine is much bigger). The rest of the 700km drive was "stately".

The American cops don't mess around: "You broke the law.....be quiet. Pay the fine."

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#2155726 7-Jan-2019 12:11

TinyTim:
MikeB4:

TinyTim:

But the speed limit isn't a target; drive at the speed that feels safe (which is probably less than 80km/h). Why does the limit need to reflect that? I drove over the Hunderlees last month, and they have lowered the limit to 80km/h since I last drove there. But it's so windy that only a lunatic who wouldn't be bothered by the speed limit anyway would try to drive over 80, so it's a bit pointless.

Exactly, however there are so many drivers in NZ that feel that if you drive at say 90 or 95kph on a 100kph road you are ruining their lives. They also feel that saving a minute or two over a 1 hour drive is absolutely life changing. They see a 100 sign and interpret that as saying 110 or 120.

So I guess on roads like Masterton to Castlepoint, it's usually quiet enough that that sort of behaviour is not an issue, while over the Hunderlees it is.

The problem is that that sort of behaviour is an issue. The law is not optional, even when the road is straight, dry and empty.

MikeB4

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#2155728 7-Jan-2019 12:18

TinyTim:

MikeB4:

TinyTim:

But the speed limit isn't a target; drive at the speed that feels safe (which is probably less than 80km/h). Why does the limit need to reflect that? I drove over the Hunderlees last month, and they have lowered the limit to 80km/h since I last drove there. But it's so windy that only a lunatic who wouldn't be bothered by the speed limit anyway would try to drive over 80, so it's a bit pointless.

Exactly, however there are so many drivers in NZ that feel that if you drive at say 90 or 95kph on a 100kph road you are ruining their lives. They also feel that saving a minute or two over a 1 hour drive is absolutely life changing. They see a 100 sign and interpret that as saying 110 or 120.

So I guess on roads like Masterton to Castlepoint, it's usually quiet enough that that sort of behaviour is not an issue, while over the Hunderlees it is.

Very few roads in the Wairarapa are safe at 100kph including SH2. Add in the average Masterton driver and they are barely safe at 50kph.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

TinyTim

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#2155729 7-Jan-2019 12:21

tdgeek:

TinyTim:

MikeB4:

TinyTim:

But the speed limit isn't a target; drive at the speed that feels safe (which is probably less than 80km/h). Why does the limit need to reflect that? I drove over the Hunderlees last month, and they have lowered the limit to 80km/h since I last drove there. But it's so windy that only a lunatic who wouldn't be bothered by the speed limit anyway would try to drive over 80, so it's a bit pointless.

Exactly, however there are so many drivers in NZ that feel that if you drive at say 90 or 95kph on a 100kph road you are ruining their lives. They also feel that saving a minute or two over a 1 hour drive is absolutely life changing. They see a 100 sign and interpret that as saying 110 or 120.

So I guess on roads like Masterton to Castlepoint, it's usually quiet enough that that sort of behaviour is not an issue, while over the Hunderlees it is.

Sounds like you are using the speed limit as a target? Hundalees is 80kph, with suggested safe speeds on the bends. Clearly there are stretches of road where you would not go at 80k, and some that you can. You cannot have suggested or legal speed limit signs every 50 metres for the length of the Hundalee drive time.

Not at all. My comment was that only a lunatic would try to drive over 80km/h on the Hunderlees anyway.

100km/h is the default open road limit, and there are well defined guidelines and standards as to what safety features a road should have for different traffic levels for that speed limit - e.g. gravel and single lane vs two-lane road with centre line vs wider carriageway and larger shoulders and more signage vs dual carriageway etc. If you can't meet the standard for the traffic level (for whatever reason) then you get congestion and proportionally higher accident rates. A way to reduce the impact of that is to lower the speed limit. (Which seems to be the preferred choice in NZ because we don't spend much on roads.)

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