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Obraik
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  #2749473 25-Jul-2021 14:31
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Technofreak:

 

BEV may well be the future for light vehicles but heavy vehicle manufacturers are working on using other energy sources.

From a long term environmental and economic perspective I'm yet to be convinced batteries are the best option. While EV batteries get repurposed with a second life, right now there is no defined way to recycle the parts of a BEV battery. Part of the problem is not all EV batteries are the same so different processes may be required. Recycling is currently expensive to the point it is cheaper or as cheap to go and mine the raw materials rather than recycle. Also some recycling processes are very energy intensive.

The real concern I have for us in New Zealand is we won't have the economies of scale to do the recycling here and we could end up as we have done with some plastics. We can't recycle and we cannot send oversea to recycle either.

 

 

 

EDIT.

 

I'm not so sure the rest of the world has given up on hydrogen.  Honda are still talking about fuel cells vehicles in this recent article Honda EV commitment

 

VW and Scania (which is owned by VW) have pulled away from fuel cells but that doesn't mean hydrogen isn't in their future. This article talks about Scania's joint venture to use a High Pressure Direct Injection (HPDI) hydrogen fuel system Scania and Westport Fuel System will cooperate in hydrogen research project

 

This article is about some of the current hydrogen developments including companies like Daimler Benz and Volvo Hydrogen might still make sense 

 

I'd suggest the accelerating BEV uptake you mention is being driven by emissions regulations and the current lack of a better alternative rather than by what may ultimately be the best technology long term.

 

The convenience and ability to charge at home is not universal. In many parts of the world and even in a lot of parts of New Zealand cars are parked outside and on the street rather than inside or close to a charging point. It's not possible/practical for a lot of people to charge at home. There will remain the need for a centralised fuel source even for BEV's.

 

 

You can't really compare EV battery recycling to plastic recycling in New Zealand. One is significantly more valuable than the other. Infact, Tesla disagrees with your statement that it's easier to get resources from the ground vs recycling them from old packs. As you'll see in the link, in the future Tesla sees that they will no longer be getting their materials from mining but rather from old packs. With that in mind, it won't matter if NZ has its own capabilities to recycle or not - companies like Tesla will be happy to take them and send them to their nearest factories to recycle them.

 

Scania has a statement on the future of their hydrogen developments, basically saying that they don't see it as efficient enough for actually powering transport but useful for forging steel to make their trucks. True, Honda hasn't said they have fully given up on Hydrogen but they have discontinued the only hydrogen vehicle they currently make.

 

Not having offstreet parking doesn't need to mean that one can't make an EV work. Infact, many countries are now adding street side charging for just that reason. As you'd expect with offstreet parking being a novelty there, the UK has started looking into adding this through a number of ways, such as adding chargers to street lights or pop up charge poles. The problem is solvable.





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Technofreak

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  #2749477 25-Jul-2021 15:10
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gzt:
Technofreak

In relation to your point claiming we already have VTOL and they are called helicopters. This is a very silly thing to say. These are very different craft. VTOL technologies are far more efficient in nearly every way. They ain't helicopters.

 

Yes they are quite different and the VTOL technologies may be more efficient but their mission profiles are very similar. VTOL won't be cheaper to the point it makes any difference. You're missing my point. The average person is not using helicopters in the manner that Lilium are proposing for their aircraft and for the same reasons they won't use a Lilium type aircraft either.





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gzt

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  #2749481 25-Jul-2021 15:30
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Lilium is just an example of VTOL. It's not hard to find more including single person. You're missing my point. The average person did not travel by internal combustion until Henry Ford began production. Comparing VTOL to helicopters is like comparing a Bedford bus to a Tesla.



Technofreak

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  #2749482 25-Jul-2021 15:42
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gzt: Lilium is just an example of VTOL. It's not hard to find more including single person. You're missing my point. The average person did not travel by internal combustion until Henry Ford began production. Comparing VTOL to helicopters is like comparing a Bedford bus to a Tesla.

 

OK, then please explain to me how a VTOL will succeed as a form of point to point transport for the masses when a helicopter hasn't. Electricity and ducted fans won't do it.

 

I know Lilium is just one form of VTOL. I've discussed various other similar projects on various forums. They all fall into the same boat. The proponents are dreamers. 





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  #2749484 25-Jul-2021 15:52
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Technofreak: OK, then please explain to me how a VTOL will succeed as a form of point to point transport for the masses when a helicopter hasn't.

Conventional helicopters are expensive to operate and maintain.

They all fall into the same boat. The proponents are dreamers.

Dreamers like Musk - in relation to electric cars and space travel, yes - agree with you there.

RobDickinson
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  #2749486 25-Jul-2021 15:56
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Helicopters are expensive because they are very complicated machines with absolute time limited parts that burn through a lot of fuel and need a highly skilled pilot. 

An EV vtol removes the expense from most of that


 
 
 

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tdgeek
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  #2749497 25-Jul-2021 17:09
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Technofreak:

 

gzt: Lilium is just an example of VTOL. It's not hard to find more including single person. You're missing my point. The average person did not travel by internal combustion until Henry Ford began production. Comparing VTOL to helicopters is like comparing a Bedford bus to a Tesla.

 

OK, then please explain to me how a VTOL will succeed as a form of point to point transport for the masses when a helicopter hasn't. Electricity and ducted fans won't do it.

 

I know Lilium is just one form of VTOL. I've discussed various other similar projects on various forums. They all fall into the same boat. The proponents are dreamers. 

 

 

I agree. What I see here are a number of nice technologies. They all evolve over time. Now, what works? What is economically viable? What satisfies safety? NTSB...

 

I don't see personal VTOL occurring as personal electric scooters do. Bedford Bus to a Tesla? Bedford buses carry more people. Proven in that time.Tesla isn't. But a car and a Jetson-pack isn't quite the same 


tdgeek
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  #2749498 25-Jul-2021 17:12
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RobDickinson:

 

Helicopters are expensive because they are very complicated machines with absolute time limited parts that burn through a lot of fuel and need a highly skilled pilot. 

An EV vtol removes the expense from most of that

 

 

You dont need a highly skilled pilot? 


RobDickinson
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  #2749504 25-Jul-2021 17:28
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no, most of the electric vtol's in development are assuming automated flying.


gzt

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  #2749509 25-Jul-2021 17:37
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Rolls-Royce begins hybrid electric generator ground test program intended for regional service aircraft:

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/generator-pgs1-rolls-royce-hybrid-electric-aircraft/


Dingbatt
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  #2749512 25-Jul-2021 18:15
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I suggest you read Where’s My Flying Car? A Memoir of Future Past by J Storrs Hall.

 

Pretty well laid out as to why we don’t have George Jetson style vehicles by now.





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raytaylor
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  #2749515 25-Jul-2021 18:35
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For those saying hydrogen is a no-go. 

 

 

 

I agree in that dont like the idea of NZ hydro capacity being used to produce hydrogen. It should be left as a replacement for coal, diesel and geothermal.   

 

Australia has a massive desert which is well suited for solar panels and hydrogen production. When they get sick of selling minerals to china, I have heard a few suggestions that it could become the worlds hydrogen producer.   

 

Also thinking about hydrogen transport - whats stopping it being transported in the form of off-peak electrical capacity?   
A mini production plant at every service station using off-peak daytime grid capacity from nearby residential solar panels? 

 

 

 

I also like the idea of a catenary and pantograph for trucks on uphill sections of road. Currently being trialed in some european country I forget the name of. 
As the motorway starts going up hill, a truck raises its pantograph and picks up supplemental electricity from the overhead catenary. Can be automated. 

 

Another suggestion I have for reducing vehicle emissions - more tunnels. 
We seriously need one under the Rimutaka hill and the Kaimai range.  





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PolicyGuy
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  #2749517 25-Jul-2021 18:58
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raytaylor:

 

Another suggestion I have for reducing vehicle emissions - more tunnels. 
We seriously need one under the Remutaka hill and the Kaimai range.  

 

 

Both have a rail tunnel already
A proper integrated public transport system with BEV taxis for the last few / first few kilometres - and "Johnny Cabs" by 2030 - will vastly reduce the need for personal car transport

 

Just sayin' ;-)


Technofreak

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  #2749530 25-Jul-2021 19:37
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To those of you that think helicopters are expensive and an electric VTOL won't be, I think you're going to be sadly mistaken. Sure the EVTOL might be cheaper but since they are planned to be used for air transport (where the passengers pay for the service) they will have to go through the same design and certification process as any other aircraft. They will therefore have expensive certified parts which in many cases will have a life limit. Those motors, thrust bearings, fan blades, thurst vectoring systems will not last forever and they will require inspections..

To give an example, we run our cars for hundreds of thousands of kilometres and never overhaul the engines, whereas a piston aircraft engine is mandated for overhaul at generally around 2000 hours irrespective of how it is running. These engines will run for much longer than this but if you're carrying fare paying passengers you must comply with the mandated limit. You can be sure there will be similar limitations on any EVTOL.

For those that think automation will replace the pilot, so far as that size aircraft is concerned it will happen but not for a while. It's still considered cheaper to have a pilot in the hot seat. Certification is going to be a big hurdle. Most of you will recall the hype over pizza delivery via a drone. Didn't come to much. I'm watching with great interest of the success or not of the proposed Amazon delivery drones. I'm not holding my breathe.

Also how many on here would be keen to trust their life with a faceless automatic system, one that doesn't die when the sh1t hits the fan, and one that hasn't been programmed to handle that particular emergency.

The focus on cost is only part of the story. The total impracticality of the concept of Jetson's like travel is what will kill it in the end.

EVTOL may come to pass but not as a method of transport for the masses.




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Technofreak

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  #2749531 25-Jul-2021 19:38
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gzt: Rolls-Royce begins hybrid electric generator ground test program intended for regional service aircraft:

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/generator-pgs1-rolls-royce-hybrid-electric-aircraft/

 

Interesting article. Where does the generator get it power from?





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