Nissan LEAF - General

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301 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 90

#1881783 11-Oct-2017 10:06

Hey All,

So having sold my car, I'm now in the market for a leaf. The conundrum I'm having is whether to go gen1 or gen2. I'm quite familiar with all the feature advantages etc of gen2 over gen1 - I'm not worried about that.

For me, it comes down to two d's: depreciation, and depletion.

I'm expecting to own the car for 3-5 years. My daily commute is a 70km round trip, but I do go on-call sometimes, so I will often have to make that trip twice in a day - hell, 3 times sometimes. There is a fast charger half way between home and work, so it's not the end of the world (Although I don't fancy sitting in a dark carpark at 3am in the morning for 20 minutes...but anyway).

I can only afford the budget end of the range. My initial budget is $12k. ($7k that I got for selling my ICE car, and $5k on top of that). I've justified to the wife the $5k will be paid back in about 18 months through the expected ~$75 per week savings I'll be getting.

However, if a gen1 battery would deplete to the point it couldn't get me through a day's trip with some spare after a few years, that might change things. Also the depreciation rate would effect my decision.

From a purely financial point of view (Ie: Not bells and whistles...heat pumps vs resistive etc), can anyone provide me a solid argument to increase my budget to ~$15k to buy a gen2 leaf over a gen1 leaf, based solely on TCO over 5 years including depreciation, expected battery degradation, and $75 per week savings?

This will be presented to the household CEO - so it better be good.

Jeeves

301 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 90

#1881818 11-Oct-2017 10:52

....Also I'm not in a major hurry - so I might look at importing one myself to save a few $k .... k14 - any tips?

k14

631 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 94

#1881823 11-Oct-2017 11:02

Jeeves:

....Also I'm not in a major hurry - so I might look at importing one myself to save a few $k .... k14 - any tips?

Haha, great question. Just yesterday I bought a gen 2 2013 from Japan. I'll wait till I get things sorted a bit more before I detail the full exercise but I should have it on the road for about $13.5k. It is an X model that has ~45k on it with an 11 bar battery.

Jeeves

301 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 90

#1881857 11-Oct-2017 11:30

Will be keen to hear that - what was your bid price if you dont mind me asking? Also which company you are using? :)

RUKI

1405 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 422

#1881887 11-Oct-2017 11:58

Jeeves:

.....

From a purely financial point of view ...... can anyone provide me a solid argument to increase my budget to ~$15k to buy a gen2 leaf over a gen1 leaf, based solely on TCO over 5 years including depreciation, expected battery degradation, and $75 per week savings?

.........

From a Business Risk Management point of view think about "worth case scenario" - i.e. "what-if" one faulty cell in your battery makes a $1000K+ hole in your otherwise perfect calculations. As of now - nobody is offering good replacement cells. (e.g. B.C. has a few crappy Gen1 cells <75% of remaining capacity which they offer for $125 each without mentioning that replacement will cost another $750+ something).

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Jeeves

301 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 90

#1881892 11-Oct-2017 12:01

RUKI:

Jeeves:

.....

From a purely financial point of view ...... can anyone provide me a solid argument to increase my budget to ~$15k to buy a gen2 leaf over a gen1 leaf, based solely on TCO over 5 years including depreciation, expected battery degradation, and $75 per week savings?

.........

From a Business Risk Management point of view think about "worth case scenario" - i.e. "what-if" one faulty cell in your battery makes a $1000K+ hole in your otherwise perfect calculations. As of now - nobody is offering good replacement cells. (e.g. B.C. has a few crappy Gen1 cells <75% of remaining capacity which they offer for $125 each without mentioning that replacement will cost another $750+ something).

Can you get gen2 replacement cells? I assume so, otherwise your argument would be the same for gen1 and 2 :)

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paulchinnz

Circumspice
796 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 223

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#1881903 11-Oct-2017 12:12

I asked a month ago, it's $NZ16k for whole pack (they don't do just a few cells) from Nissan dealership for the pleasure.

k14

631 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 94

#1881947 11-Oct-2017 13:31

paulchinnz:

I asked a month ago, it's $NZ16k for whole pack (they don't do just a few cells) from Nissan dealership for the pleasure.

Every week or two a crashed leaf comes up in the auctions (usually with heavy front end damage). Usually goes for around 5-6k NZD equivalent shipped to NZ + gst. So that is my contingency plan. Import one as a wreck, get the battery pack and I'm sure you could sell all the other parts and end up only having to spend a few thousand to do the battery swap. That is assuming I'd be able to do the swap myself. There are videos on youtube so it can't be that hard, right? ;)

wellygary

8813 posts

Uber Geek
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#1881957 11-Oct-2017 13:45

k14:

paulchinnz:

I asked a month ago, it's $NZ16k for whole pack (they don't do just a few cells) from Nissan dealership for the pleasure.

Every week or two a crashed leaf comes up in the auctions (usually with heavy front end damage). Usually goes for around 5-6k NZD equivalent shipped to NZ + gst. So that is my contingency plan. Import one as a wreck, get the battery pack and I'm sure you could sell all the other parts and end up only having to spend a few thousand to do the battery swap. That is assuming I'd be able to do the swap myself. There are videos on youtube so it can't be that hard, right? ;)

Only if you take a few months to beef up, :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Battery

"The battery and control module together weigh 218 kg (480 lb)"

PhantomNVD

2619 posts

Uber Geek
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Inactive user

#1881960 11-Oct-2017 13:57

We bought our 11 bar Gen1 exJap “x” model for $11,600 two months ago from an NZ dealer on trademe 22K on the clock, 83%SoH and 7,000kms later it’s still 83% with a range of around 115kms (usage and speed/hill dependent)

We turned a $300/month fuel bill into $70 extra electric bill (Powershop and Counties power peak/off peak plan)

$2.40 per offpeak charge (from 7kms on th3 GoM) for SWMBO’ 84km daily return trip plus kiddy karting in the afternoons...

For us this was a no-brainer decision and the car will have paid for itself in approximately 50 months (just over 4 years) NOT even counting any service/Ruk/licence savings...

At this point we could happily pay $6-8k for a good reconditioned battery pack, or (hopefully) be able to upgrade to a 40KW+ battery pack and increase our range too.

As for faulty battery module, or even slow degradation and reduction in range, both ends of the commute have not CHaDeMO chargers (currently free) and commando plugs (paid for by either the home or work) available, so (for us) even a 50km range would still maintain our repayment plan and justify the purchase too.

Bonus is the longer trips we’re starting to take (Papakura to Whangarei today, Papakura to Hamilton yesterday) for whic we’ll only pay for the wear and tear on breaks and tyres... and some shortish compulsory rest breaks... but with a 6YO and 8YO in the back seat, those breaks are basically required every 100kms or so anyway ☺️

k14

631 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 94

#1881965 11-Oct-2017 14:22

wellygary:

Only if you take a few months to beef up, :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Battery

"The battery and control module together weigh 218 kg (480 lb)"

I'm sure its nothing a few trolley jacks and a mate or two can't fix.

PhantomNVD: We bought our 11 bar Gen1 exJap “x” model for $11,600 two months ago from an NZ dealer on trademe 22K on the clock, 83%SoH and 7,000kms later it’s still 83% with a range of around 115kms (usage and speed/hill dependent)

We turned a $300/month fuel bill into $70 extra electric bill (Powershop and Counties power peak/off peak plan)

$2.40 per offpeak charge (from 7kms on th3 GoM) for SWMBO’ 84km daily return trip plus kiddy karting in the afternoons...

For us this was a no-brainer decision and the car will have paid for itself in approximately 50 months (just over 4 years) NOT even counting any service/Ruk/licence savings...

At this point we could happily pay $6-8k for a good reconditioned battery pack, or (hopefully) be able to upgrade to a 40KW+ battery pack and increase our range too.

As for faulty battery module, or even slow degradation and reduction in range, both ends of the commute have not CHaDeMO chargers (currently free) and commando plugs (paid for by either the home or work) available, so (for us) even a 50km range would still maintain our repayment plan and justify the purchase too.

Bonus is the longer trips we’re starting to take (Papakura to Whangarei today, Papakura to Hamilton yesterday) for whic we’ll only pay for the wear and tear on breaks and tyres... and some shortish compulsory rest breaks... but with a 6YO and 8YO in the back seat, those breaks are basically required every 100kms or so anyway ☺️

Great information. I am in basically the same boat. Although I have bought mine without seeing the leafspy report (eek). I will report back with my information.

For my "business case" my spreadsheet says I will be cashflow positive in the third year and after five years be into profit overall. Taking into account depreciation of 25% pa, interest rates of 5.5%, inflation of 2% and RUC being turned back on in 2021 for EV's. I only do 8000km per year so it is really at the short end of the spectrum. The other tangible but difficult to account for aspect is the massively improved safety of the Leaf compared to my van that I currently drive. No airbags vs 7 or 8 and all the other improvements mean it is a very easy decision to make. Fortunately I am in the position to do this at this point in time, 4 weeks ago I hadn't even considered it.

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MarkH67

522 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 320

#1881980 11-Oct-2017 15:14

Jeeves:

From a purely financial point of view (Ie: Not bells and whistles...heat pumps vs resistive etc), can anyone provide me a solid argument to increase my budget to ~$15k to buy a gen2 leaf over a gen1 leaf, based solely on TCO over 5 years including depreciation, expected battery degradation, and $75 per week savings?

The odds are that a newer Leaf will have a battery in better condition, therefore less likely to give you a headache.

The Gen 2 Leaf has a bit better range which gives you more reserve. Considering that all currently available Li-Ion batteries degrade over time it is definitely worth having a reasonable reserve for a car that you will use for 5 years. If you are saving $75 per week then in 5 years you will save over $15k anyway so it really should be VERY easy to justify spending $15k-$20k on a newish car!

I bought a 2015 Gen 2 Leaf for my 70k daily commute and it is working very well for me. My next car will be at least 60kWh which will work better for longer trips - but for commuting my 24kWh Leaf is just perfect and should be fine for 5 years or more. I typically get home with thirty something percent remaining, this should translate to still having a reasonable enough reserve in 5 years time.

I'll be saving money over the next few years, wouldn't mind buying a 2019 60kWh Leaf in 2021 if the price isn't too bad. Currently my vehicle expenses are pretty low with mainly tyres and power bill to worry about.

k14

631 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 94

#1881985 11-Oct-2017 15:25

Going by some of the tradme auctions there seems little need to be concerned about battery degredation. Here is a 2013 model that has done 57000kms and it still has 12 battery bars left. It sounds a bit too good to be true? Anyone seen a Leaf with over 50000km and still 12 battery bars left?

MarkH67

522 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 320

#1881991 11-Oct-2017 15:35

k14:

Going by some of the tradme auctions there seems little need to be concerned about battery degredation. Here is a 2013 model that has done 57000kms and it still has 12 battery bars left. It sounds a bit too good to be true? Anyone seen a Leaf with over 50000km and still 12 battery bars left?

I'm doubtful that a 4 year old Leaf battery wouldn't be degraded much. Is it possible for one to still be on 12 bars? Maybe, but I wouldn't buy one without expecting that the 12th bar could disappear any day. The first bar doesn't disappear until the battery has lost 15% and then subsequent bars are lost for every 6.25% dropped - a twelve bar Leaf could easily have a battery at 86%, I definitely would assume at 4 years old it is probably under 90% SoH.

RUKI

1405 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 422

#1882033 11-Oct-2017 18:02

Jeeves:

Can you get gen2 replacement cells? I assume so...

Try to find any for reasonable price, with known capacity, tested under proper load (not using RC hobby chargers). Wrecks from Japan for discounted price would be in unknown condition. Usually wreckers will tell you two things: it is "good as gold" (price would be reflective of it's weight in gold) and "the car was driving before crash".

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