Auckland Transport: Hop & Snapper. Whats the real issue

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#677021 26-Aug-2012 09:20

compost:
Kyanar:
freitasm:

I was talking about "Some media channel really needs to apply a proper journalistic investigation to this, but I suspect disinterested Auckland public means it may never happen".

This is the truth I was referring to. I wasn't saying Snapper claims were the truthful ones.

Ah, my apologies then. Yes, it would definitely be good to actually get the truth from someone.

There is still a strong theme from some in this topic that far from being pushy lobby-monsters, Snapper are actually plucky locals that we should express some sort of Welly-solidarity with.

I understand that without an Auckland customer base, Snapper would be uneconomic and may have to be shut down countrywide - good riddance I say. Frankly after all this kafuffle I would like to see NZ Bus lose all their routes in Auckland, but it's hard to see who could step in.

nigelj:
sbiddle: Parkeon were supplying terminals for all the other buses, and last I heard about a month ago the hardware hadn't even been finalised, let alone ordered.

To be fair, wasn't non-NZ Bus' already planned as a 'stage 3' operation, I seem to recall that the idea was that NZ Bus' Snapper readers were compatibile with "AT Hop'/Thales cards, (I guess to make things less confusing for the public). It would therefore make sense that the Parkeon/Wayfarer/etc machines were not yet ordered (especially if it was unclear if Snapper/NZ Bus would meet their end of the bargin).

My concern is, surely there was already a deal signed with Parkeon to at least guarrantee supply/compatibilty at time of order for X units (where X is number of buses owned by Ritchies+H&E+Birkenhead+Anyone I forgot/small operators, plus an initial allotment of spares for replacement of faultys & new buses). So does: Termination Fees for Parkeon + Agreed upon terms for units when required + extra units that'd be needed to cover NZ Bus exceed the 10 million or so that is floating around in the media as the figure that AT will now pay Thales for their Bus solution component.

Of course, now Thales supply the whole solution, it'd be even more embarrassing for Thales/AT if something goes wrong, there are two fewer companies that the finger can be pointed to if something goes wrong.

What you guys have said would make sense IF the Thales solution was being made compatible with the Snapper - then that would hold up getting the AT HOP cards and readers, but the situation is the other way around - the Snapper solution has to be compatible with AT HOP. Therefore I strongly suspect it is not Snapper who've held things up, but more a case of those who have failed finding someone else to blame. Take a step back and think about it - what AT are telling the public makes not sense!

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#677068 26-Aug-2012 11:57

keewee01:
compost:
Kyanar:
freitasm:

I was talking about "Some media channel really needs to apply a proper journalistic investigation to this, but I suspect disinterested Auckland public means it may never happen".

This is the truth I was referring to. I wasn't saying Snapper claims were the truthful ones.

Ah, my apologies then. Yes, it would definitely be good to actually get the truth from someone.

There is still a strong theme from some in this topic that far from being pushy lobby-monsters, Snapper are actually plucky locals that we should express some sort of Welly-solidarity with.

I understand that without an Auckland customer base, Snapper would be uneconomic and may have to be shut down countrywide - good riddance I say. Frankly after all this kafuffle I would like to see NZ Bus lose all their routes in Auckland, but it's hard to see who could step in.

nigelj:
sbiddle: Parkeon were supplying terminals for all the other buses, and last I heard about a month ago the hardware hadn't even been finalised, let alone ordered.

To be fair, wasn't non-NZ Bus' already planned as a 'stage 3' operation, I seem to recall that the idea was that NZ Bus' Snapper readers were compatibile with "AT Hop'/Thales cards, (I guess to make things less confusing for the public). It would therefore make sense that the Parkeon/Wayfarer/etc machines were not yet ordered (especially if it was unclear if Snapper/NZ Bus would meet their end of the bargin).

My concern is, surely there was already a deal signed with Parkeon to at least guarrantee supply/compatibilty at time of order for X units (where X is number of buses owned by Ritchies+H&E+Birkenhead+Anyone I forgot/small operators, plus an initial allotment of spares for replacement of faultys & new buses). So does: Termination Fees for Parkeon + Agreed upon terms for units when required + extra units that'd be needed to cover NZ Bus exceed the 10 million or so that is floating around in the media as the figure that AT will now pay Thales for their Bus solution component.

Of course, now Thales supply the whole solution, it'd be even more embarrassing for Thales/AT if something goes wrong, there are two fewer companies that the finger can be pointed to if something goes wrong.

What you guys have said would make sense IF the Thales solution was being made compatible with the Snapper - then that would hold up getting the AT HOP cards and readers, but the situation is the other way around - the Snapper solution has to be compatible with AT HOP. Therefore I strongly suspect it is not Snapper who've held things up, but more a case of those who have failed finding someone else to blame. Take a step back and think about it - what AT are telling the public makes not sense!

Actually, what I wrote was based around Snapper bus readers (no other part of the Snapper eco-system) becoming compatible with the Thales eco-system. the myhop.co.nz homepage still implies that (although I can't find the old document that outlined that) as it still has an old promo down the bottom which clearly says "Late 2012; NZ Bus, rail, and selected ferries" - i.e. no implication that Ritchies et al was going to be part of it in 2012, it was always going to be 2013.

What AT are saying does make sense if you've been following it every step of the way (even loosely like myself). What only makes sense if you take in account the Governments interference is why Snapper was able to get their noses into the mix in the first place, they clearly lost the tender for the entire system.

The problem is, no one is going to know the real story unless there is an OIA request (and I think AT would be exempt as they are a CCO), or it goes to court.

Linuxluver

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#677122 26-Aug-2012 14:38

simon14: I'll just provide mu 2 cents here.

I live on the North Shore and work in the city.

There are 3 different bus companies that I could catch home, but all of them have different ticketing systems so my option is to either pay with cash or buy three different types of concession cards.

I blame the council for not enforcing integration...

As a result, i don't bus.

On the North Shore we can get public transport passes that give access to all routes and bus lines on the North Shore and into the city...and a couple of railway stations beyond Britomart.

My daughter was getting the "Northern Pass - Lower Zone"....which covers everything south of Constellation / Upper Harbour Highway and into the City...and a couple of train stations beyond Britomart (not sure exactly, as she doesn't ride the train). The pass was $40 / week, unlimited use. There is a monthly vesion, too, I think.

http://www.maxx.co.nz/info/pricing-passes/types-of-tickets/northern-pass.aspx

Look it up. They are great deals...and no issues with tagging on or off.

These passes address the ticket integration issue for people on the North Shore....and they save a lot of money if you use public transport a lot.

The only downside is that they can be inconvenient to buy (There had to be a catch). Busway stations (peak hours) and the main bus routes into the CBD and Britomart

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Kyanar

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#677195 26-Aug-2012 18:07

Linuxluver:

The only downside is that they can be inconvenient to buy (There had to be a catch). Busway stations (peak hours) and the main bus routes into the CBD and Britomart

Ha! Try the monthly discovery. From Waitakere, there is only one place which is even slightly convenient to get to that I can buy this - Britomart. I actually have to go away from work one day a month to get to work, just so I can buy one. There are no outlets in Waitakere that sell it, and no outlets near work that sell it. There used to be a couple of local dairies, but now nothing.

ajobbins

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#678217 28-Aug-2012 15:14

From Snappers point of view, they were being asked to integrate with a system that doesn't exist yet. Not even the hardware specs were signed off.

I've heard many things for a few sources over the last couple of years, and it doesn't paint ARTA/AT in a very good light.

I'm sure the truth will all come out in the wash, especially if/when Snapper sue as they have indicated they may.

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Kyanar

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#678222 28-Aug-2012 15:26

ajobbins: From Snappers point of view, they were being asked to integrate with a system that doesn't exist yet. Not even the hardware specs were signed off.

I've heard many things for a few sources over the last couple of years, and it doesn't paint ARTA/AT in a very good light.

I'm sure the truth will all come out in the wash, especially if/when Snapper sue as they have indicated they may.

The problem is that we wouldn't have even had this problem if Snapper had simply gotten over that they were not the preferred supplier, and not lobbied to be allowed to launch off ARTA's back after unsuccessfully suing them. I cannot by any stretch of the term think of Snapper as the good guys here,

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ajobbins

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#678233 28-Aug-2012 15:52

Kyanar: The problem is that we wouldn't have even had this problem if Snapper had simply gotten over that they were not the preferred supplier, and not lobbied to be allowed to launch off ARTA's back after unsuccessfully suing them. I cannot by any stretch of the term think of Snapper as the good guys here,

From what I have heard the original tender process was very much not conducted in a fair way, and certainly not a in a way that provided the best solution for Auckland - in terms of value for money, technology and architecture, the Thales solution was inferior.

Snapper, IMHO, have done a fantastic job of implementing a working system in Wellington. They have proven themselves and the technology in the local market and have also done a fantastic job of using the technology in innovative ways (Touch2Pay etc). Not to mention the flexability their card offers in terms of being able to use it at some retailers (Like Fix), as well as being able to use it for other purposes - for example, Snapper have it working as a building access card. Snapper have been far more 'open' with the technology than what the Auckland solution has been agreed. What has been agreed is a very closed and very limited use of the technology.

Also, AFAIK, nothing has been stopping Thales from pushing forward with their solution on non-NZ Bus transport - I understand that their solution is simply not ready. Regardless of Snapper being in Auckland currently, I haven't seen anything credible to suggest that Thales would have anything in Auckland right now anyway.

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freitasm

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#678244 28-Aug-2012 16:14

I read this discussion and I can't stop thinking it's another case of "If it's from Wellington then it's no good for Auckland"...

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#678275 28-Aug-2012 17:15

freitasm: I read this discussion and I can't stop thinking it's another case of "If it's from Wellington then it's no good for Auckland"...

I´d prob disagree with you on that point. The attempt at rolling out any kind of electronic ticketing in Wellington is far from pretty. Greater Wellington have been thinking about it for the past 15 years and have made less progress than Auckland Transport / ARTA. I look forward to a) getting all the facts out on the table from both sides and b) A decent system that can be implemented not just in Auckland but across the country.

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#678278 28-Aug-2012 17:21

freitasm: I read this discussion and I can't stop thinking it's another case of "If it's from Wellington then it's no good for Auckland"...

Well that cuts both ways....

Kyanar:The problem is that we wouldn't have even had this problem if Snapper had simply gotten over that they were not the preferred supplier, and not lobbied to be allowed to launch off ARTA's back after unsuccessfully suing them. I cannot by any stretch of the term think of Snapper as the good guys here,

Do we really know this(?), or is it part of the reason there should be a proper investigation about how the publics' moneies have been spent.

I'm not suggesting who is in the right here, but I'm pretty certain that there is something wrong with the whole process/solution... and nobody (especially nobody from AT; who have our money) seems to be standing up and saying what's going on. Finger pointing is all very well but I learnt that when you point at something, there's 1 finger doing the pointing in one direction and 3 fingers pointing back at you.

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#678280 28-Aug-2012 17:26

knoydart:
freitasm: I read this discussion and I can't stop thinking it's another case of "If it's from Wellington then it's no good for Auckland"...

I´d prob disagree with you on that point. The attempt at rolling out any kind of electronic ticketing in Wellington is far from pretty. Greater Wellington have been thinking about it for the past 15 years and have made less progress than Auckland Transport / ARTA. I look forward to a) getting all the facts out on the table from both sides and b) A decent system that can be implemented not just in Auckland but across the country.

I've been using nothing but Snapper for a couple of years now, no worries at all.

There's obviously a lot of money to be made somewhere, consumer convenience be damned.

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ajobbins

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#678286 28-Aug-2012 17:40

knoydart:
freitasm: I read this discussion and I can't stop thinking it's another case of "If it's from Wellington then it's no good for Auckland"...

I´d prob disagree with you on that point. The attempt at rolling out any kind of electronic ticketing in Wellington is far from pretty. Greater Wellington have been thinking about it for the past 15 years and have made less progress than Auckland Transport / ARTA. I look forward to a) getting all the facts out on the table from both sides and b) A decent system that can be implemented not just in Auckland but across the country.

As I understand it, one of the fundamental flaws with the Thales solution is that it will be segregated if deployed in more than one region. Eg, you wont be able to use a AT HOP card in another region.

Unlike with Snapper, I can actually use my Hop card on buses in Wellington and vice versa - this will be purposely separated with AT Hop. The Thales solution is more limited in a number of ways, and pretty much all for commercial benefit at the cost to users.

Not sure I agree with your 'Auckland has made more progress' statement either. Pretty sure you can use Snapper on all greater Wellington buses these days as well as to buy train tickets. Auckland are miles away from this at present. In fact I would say they are years behind.

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ajobbins

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#678287 28-Aug-2012 17:44

The Thales solution is just a transport card. Nothing more. They don't want it to ever be any more than just a card to pay for transport within the Auckland region only.

Snapper on the other hand is a flexible payment solution for transport and other micro payment - and then some. They are much more open to other uses for the card such as loading of other applications to the card chip. Could be used for building access, flybuys (or other loyalty), Airlines (Eg. mPass) etc etc if they choose. The Thales card will never be any of these things because they have specifically designed it that way.

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Linuxluver

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#678290 28-Aug-2012 17:48

compost:
I understand that without an Auckland customer base, Snapper would be uneconomic and may have to be shut down countrywide - good riddance I say. Frankly after all this kafuffle I would like to see NZ Bus lose all their routes in Auckland, but it's hard to see who could step in.

$100M would buy a LOT of buses.

Auckland Transport should just buy their own buses if none of the private operators are interested ijn providing the REQUIRED services.

The "pretty-please" approach to operators is a big part of what has gone wrong for most of 20 years.

Every good public transport system anywhere says how it is going to be...and then makes it so. Operators don't dictate routes priorities or service levels, they deliver them.

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knoydart

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#678292 28-Aug-2012 17:49

ajobbins:

As I understand it, one of the fundamental flaws with the Thales solution is that it will be segregated if deployed in more than one region. Eg, you wont be able to use a AT HOP card in another region.

Unlike with Snapper, I can actually use my Hop card on buses in Wellington and vice versa - this will be purposely separated with AT Hop. The Thales solution is more limited in a number of ways, and pretty much all for commercial benefit at the cost to users.

Not sure I agree with your 'Auckland has made more progress' statement either. Pretty sure you can use Snapper on all greater Wellington buses these days as well as to buy train tickets. Auckland are miles away from this at present. In fact I would say they are years behind.

My understanding was NZTA was running the back system so regions round the country could all use the same back office system. In a country where people travel between at least the major centres very often, having the ability to roam so to speak is a no brainer.

Snapper can only be used on NZ bus run services in the city (Our BDFL can´t Snapper from J´ville into town for instance) and train tickets can only be bought from staffed stations with the snapper eftpos terminals which are I think the busier stations during peak hours only.

One issue that I´ll raise and possibly get shot down in flames is the aspect of the boarding data from other transport operators being passed through the snapper system. Now I´ve been told that there are clear lines between NZ Bus & Snapper inside the parent company but the appearance of being able to access that data I think concerns other operators.

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