Electric vehicles

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#1325215 15-Jun-2015 17:27

WyleECoyoteNZ: ... As for having EV's emit a noise when there moving ... I suspect the reason it might not work is that people buying a pure EV may do it for the silent motoring it gives so therefore having a pseudo noise come out of it defeats the purpose a bit. ...

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes !!!!

It needed to be said

Sideface

MikeB4

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#1325219 15-Jun-2015 17:33

Sideface:
WyleECoyoteNZ: ... As for having EV's emit a noise when there moving ... I suspect the reason it might not work is that people buying a pure EV may do it for the silent motoring it gives so therefore having a pseudo noise come out of it defeats the purpose a bit. ...

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes !!!!

It needed to be said

Because the sound can be directional the occupants of the vehicle would not be aware of it

WyleECoyoteNZ

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#1325226 15-Jun-2015 17:54

Ok. If you make it directional, how do you prevent people overriding this or disabling the noise altogether?

I'll go back to my example of the current BMW M5 and its fake engine noise in the cabin, this is disabled by removing a fuse I believe, so its fair to assume if EVs were to make a noise it would be done the same way.

MikeB4

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#1325227 15-Jun-2015 18:02

WyleECoyoteNZ: Ok. If you make it directional, how do you prevent people overriding this or disabling the noise altogether?

I'll go back to my example of the current BMW M5 and its fake engine noise in the cabin, this is disabled by removing a fuse I believe, so its fair to assume if EVs were to make a noise it would be done the same way.

Make it a legal requirement and part of the WOF, make expensive penalties and demerits if caught. Of course there will be those who will break the law as they do now with speeding and drink driving, hopefully the majority would comply.

SirHumphreyAppleby

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#1325230 15-Jun-2015 18:08

WyleECoyoteNZ: I'll go back to my example of the current BMW M5 and its fake engine noise in the cabin, this is disabled by removing a fuse I believe, so its fair to assume if EVs were to make a noise it would be done the same way.

I believe early versions of the Leaf allowed this to be disabled by pressing a button. This didn't persist restarts. On newer models, significant disassembly is required to remove this.

Depending on the market, the Leaf either makes this sound or doesn't, as in some places it is illegal. I assume given there was a feature to turn this off, that it could just as easily be controlled by firmware. Anyone looking to buy a leaf that doesn't want it should insist this is turned off as a condition of sale, and if they ever make it compulsory, it's a simple software change to turn it back on.

WyleECoyoteNZ

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#1325233 15-Jun-2015 18:21

Ok. So I could enable the fuse before my WOF and disable it after...and run the risk of being caught.

Now the noise volume will need to increase with road speed. Should a police officer at the side of the road be able to hear the noise from the vehicle? Should the noise be audible when the vehicle is reversing?

If it's going to be a WOF item, then this will h a ve to be subject to being checked anywhere anytime. If the noise is to be directional; e.g the noise is projected forward when the vehicle is moving forward, how does a police officer following me know my EV is making a sound?

MikeB4

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#1325235 15-Jun-2015 18:28

WyleECoyoteNZ: Ok. So I could enable the fuse before my WOF and disable it after...and run the risk of being caught.

Now the noise volume will need to increase with road speed. Should a police officer at the side of the road be able to hear the noise from the vehicle? Should the noise be audible when the vehicle is reversing?

If it's going to be a WOF item, then this will h a ve to be subject to being checked anywhere anytime. If the noise is to be directional; e.g the noise is projected forward when the vehicle is moving forward, how does a police officer following me know my EV is making a sound?

It could be a sealed unit to prevent circumvention, However its about saving life just like wearing seat belts, using lights, driving to speed regulations. Its also about respect for others like proving space for cyclists.

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Jase2985

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#1325249 15-Jun-2015 18:58

do you ahve statistics on how many disabled people have been hit and killed in carparks? by crossing the road?

i think you have made your point and derailed the thread so how about we get back on topic?

dwl

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#1325250 15-Jun-2015 19:02

I'm afraid that the biggest problems with adoption of EVs aren't whether they make a noise or not ;-(

kemosabe: @dwl: You mentioned an EV as a second car, and I do sort of agree, but think even in a second car your plans may change; i.e you need to take the second car out again and its got no charge left. From that perspective they are not economical. The Outlander is almost the flip side for me. I considered one but discounted for two reason; a) if you want to be economical, driving a 2.3 tone truck is not the place to start. b) I am not convinced they will hold their value well at all with new models being released in the next few years.

Give it 3 years, a home wind turbine and 5 seat PHEV hatchback with 75km range. That would suit me just fine.

I agree there are issues here which is why not yet mainstream. The video referenced in a post near the beginning of this thread is worth watching and had a number of good points that may not be dead accurate when looking into the future but I think a valid guide. This graph suggests we may need to wait a bit longer:

Very valid point about the vehicle size and if you don't need the SUV (Outlander PHEV is 1.8 tonne empty) a smaller car for commuting makes much more sense. I was inspired by the around the world race in 2010/2011 - the Zerotracer had 300 km range and high performance and TREV showed what could be done in this part of the world at University of South Australia or even for a home builder. A key feature of these is the weight - provided we can make the vehicle safe (which is possible) why do we need 1+ tonnes to move a couple of people.

I suspect the mainstream commuting EVs will be the 4-5 seats by 2020 but we can't forget that these larger vehicles will probably use twice the energy of a two seat tandem vehicle with narrow frontal area.

[Edit] The link above to zero race has a link to The Wave will start on 12 June .. For a greener future ! Welcome to the world's largest electric vehicle rally!

Bobdn

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#1325310 15-Jun-2015 20:43

I agree. My ideal EV would be a two seater Smart Car type vehicle (but better than a Smart Car). 99% of the time it would only be me in the car. However, I guess a four seater would allow more battery space.

The graph is interesting but its almost impossible to guess what's going to happen more than 5 years out, although its fun to try and do so. How long will oil be cheap for, possibly for a very long time now. Will a company like Apple disrupt the market? Who would have bet against Nokia or RIM in 2006, I wouldn't have.

PS thanks for the link to the Zerotracer. I've never heard of it before, looks great.

Scott3

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#1325311 15-Jun-2015 20:46

dwl:
I spoke with a dealer today (who has previously talked to me about whether this was a problem for me which it is) and apparently the reason for the reduction here was a road trip through the North Island with a full 1500 kg behind caused a few occasions where it started to ask for a "rest". The load of propelling the car up long rises plus maybe trying to charge the battery was an issue. The vehicle still seems to be the same one that has a 1500 kg tow rating overseas but Mitsubishi don't want to disappoint if it can't pull that load up long hills. It may be safe enough with the 1500 kg load and cope most of the time.

This sucks...

Regardless of the capabilities of the vehicle, exceeding manufacture rating's for towing is not a great place to be. Essentially in the event of an incident is likely your insurer will accept your claim, and the driver is left open to potential litigation.

A family member of mine has a boat with a trailered weight just under 1500kg (wet). He currently owns a previous generation outlander (2006). The NZ only reduced tow rating essentially removes this vehicle from consideration as a replacement.

What you describe is likely to be the equivalent of the Prius's "turtle" mode, when the battery hits it's depletion limit, and hence total power output is limited to say 70kW that the engine can make rather than the say 130kW of the engine + Battery/motor combined, causing a dramatic reduction of power.

In our situation the boat very rarely goes on long road trips, so the road trip thing is unlikely to be an issue. Also a 12kWh battery pack is a pretty massive buffer. The outlander PHEV features charge and hold buttons to force the car to keep the battery as charged as it can to conserve that buffer for hills on trips beyond the electric only range. If the manufacture was worried drivers would forget, they could simply force charge mode while towing (or make it the default mode, requiring deactivation at each vehicle start for trips within electric only range). VW disables fuel saving tech such as stop start when towing (it detects the load of the trailer lights to know it is towing).

Ultimately PHEV isn't a great choice for those who frequently drive long distance (especially when towing), but having the ability to tow small to medium trailer boats to the ramp and back would open up the possibility of more sales.

dwl:
There is already ability to claim back the road tax part of the petrol cost if used elsewhere so maybe a EV or PHEV running full RUC off an odometer can be considered qualifying as well. I would hate to think that users who might only get 50% EV and 50% petrol would end up paying that much. Luckily this isn't an issue until after 2020 (assuming no extension of exemption).

Your last point holds true. It's a non issue until the current RUC zero rating expired in 2020, and the odds are high that it will it will be extended again too. The current government talks up there love for EV's but are being criticised for weak incentives compared to most of the OECD, Unlikely they will scrap there main incentive.

As for getting a refund a refund for the road tax from your petrol, your right "fuel in a road user charges-licensed vehicle" makes the eligible for refund list, But strangely recreational boating, and non-commercial lawn moving etc doesn't...

MikeB4

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#1325316 15-Jun-2015 20:55

Jase2985: do you ahve statistics on how many disabled people have been hit and killed in carparks? by crossing the road?

i think you have made your point and derailed the thread so how about we get back on topic?

That statistic is pointless for NZ right now as there is only a very small percentage of EV's on NZ roads at present.

How is discussing devices etc on EV's not part of a thread about electric vehicles? but I am out.

Scott3

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#1325333 15-Jun-2015 21:17

Bobdn: I agree. My ideal EV would be a two seater Smart Car type vehicle (but better than a Smart Car). 99% of the time it would only be me in the car. However, I guess a four seater would allow more battery space.

Apparently the smart EV is really good (and for the purists it is rear wheel drive too):

"If you're buying a Smart, the Electric Drive is the model you should pick"

http://driving.ca/smart/fortwo/reviews/road-test/car-review-2014-smart-fortwo-electric-drive

I have never driven one, but apparently the auto gearbox in the petrol is some kind of nasty automated manual. Getting the EV means you get a more powerful motor driven via a single speed gearbox.

Not available in NZ, although if you really wanted one you could import a used RHD one from the UK or Japan (have been on sale in Japan a while, but I haven't been able to find out if many sold).

If you were really clever you might be able to import a LHD on from California and get it permeted. Need three out of the four:

Collectors item (perhaps but unlikely; first EV from Mercedes)
2 door coupé / Convertible (Yip)
Low volume (Yip)
Performance vehicle (quite a stretch but check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1iJJZfB7i0 )

For me to buy a pure EV we would need to be a two car household (currently me an my partner share a corolla hatchback).

If we are going to have two cars, one might as well be the primary city car, and the other be the road trip, larger load, and secondary city car.

Would love something tiny to fit in those street bays nobody else can in the city. Nissan leaf is 200mm longer than my corolla.

3x I-miev's on trademe at the moment, starting from $16k. These are very small (longer than a smart car but narrower) as they were build to fit the Japanese "Kei car" rule. Its Rear wheel drive too, but the looks can be polarising, and the battery is smaller than its compeditors. An ex Japan Nissan leaf is much better value I think (unless of course your main goal is to park in tiny parking spaces).

Batman

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#1325353 15-Jun-2015 21:32

DravidDavid:
MikeB4:
qyiet:
MikeB4:

Can I ask why do people think it is such a bad thing that EV's are fitted with a device that will emit a low volume sound to save lives?

For the same reason that having someone run in front of a car waving a flag is a silly idea. Look, I'm sorry you or someone you know was involved with the equivalent of a horse kicking someone because it was freaked out by the new car, but I think you are trying to solve a problem that there are already solutions for, and you'll get a negligible benefit while adding cost to devices, and increasing noise pollution.

Your examples are also ridiculous: If you are so blind that you literally cannot see a car coming you should be using controlled intersections, or other assistance.

Wow I am speechless

Just as a heads up the disabled have rights, look them up sometime.

They have the right to not be run over as much as anyone else. It's the responsibility of the driver to judge the situation and remain alert. It's the responsibility of the disabled person to ensure the correct help is on hand or that they are comfortable with where they are going to not cause a traffic incident.

The rest is down to accidents. Accidents happen. We can't bubble wrap everyone because one or two people out of 500 can't pay attention to the road or take a gamble crossing the road without looking.

So we could easily ban them for use when off general roads. Eg driveways and pathways into supermarkets, parks, gardens, parking lots of museums etc.

Anyway, not sure how the disabled rights people haven't latched on to Priuses... Even my neighbours' dogs have more rights than me nowadays

Mark

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#1325358 15-Jun-2015 21:43

Scott3:
Bobdn: I agree. My ideal EV would be a two seater Smart Car type vehicle (but better than a Smart Car). 99% of the time it would only be me in the car. However, I guess a four seater would allow more battery space.

Apparently the smart EV is really good (and for the purists it is rear wheel drive too):

"If you're buying a Smart, the Electric Drive is the model you should pick"

http://driving.ca/smart/fortwo/reviews/road-test/car-review-2014-smart-fortwo-electric-drive

I have never driven one, but apparently the auto gearbox in the petrol is some kind of nasty automated manual. Getting the EV means you get a more powerful motor driven via a single speed gearbox.

Not available in NZ, although if you really wanted one you could import a used RHD one from the UK or Japan (have been on sale in Japan a while, but I haven't been able to find out if many sold).

If you were really clever you might be able to import a LHD on from California and get it permeted. Need three out of the four:

I'm one of those weird people who drives a Smart (it's my commuting machine when not on the motorbike) .. but I've not heard many good things about the electric version, main gripe is the range being pathetic and there only being a limited number of them (and even less RHD verions).

True about the petrol gearbox, it's a bit lurchy (putting it mildly) it gets much smoother if you fit a dump valve, I think the transmission holds off changing gear until the boost pressure has dropped enough to not stall the blades of the turbo, if the dump valve is in then the excess gets dumped and the gear change happens.

I'm saving my pennies for a Tesla who seem to be doing the EV the right way, should have one in about 30 years :-)

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