Hydrogen powered cars: Your news and views please

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#2258227 14-Jun-2019 14:55

Working, reliable, sustainable public transport that meets the users needs and not the accountants needs and EVs are the answer. The key is to get as many cars off the roads. My youngest has been living in London for a few years now and never purchased a car. He says he never needs one as the public transport is so good. He reckons a car would just be a giant pain in the butt. Now England/London is a lot different to Aotearoa, we too decentralized to go completely without personal transport but we could do a hell of a lot better if the alternatives were there. In Wellington it seems that the suburban trains never seem to be working in the weekend and are replaced with buses or private cars. That is a good example of why we are doing so badly.

Replacing ICE vehicles with EV or Hydrogen of chicken poop is not the answer.

frankv

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#2258229 14-Jun-2019 15:00

tdgeek:

On a serious note though, there was an eScooter that exploded recently, it was caught on CCTV. Petrol cars don't do this, and a 64kW battery set would probably be a big bang. Phones too.

Petrol cars do exactly that. I've seen two cars that were being driven in a normal manner and started burning. Not to mention accidents. Boats and aircraft too.

MikeB4

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#2258230 14-Jun-2019 15:03

frankv:

tdgeek:

On a serious note though, there was an eScooter that exploded recently, it was caught on CCTV. Petrol cars don't do this, and a 64kW battery set would probably be a big bang. Phones too.

Petrol cars do exactly that. I've seen two cars that were being driven in a normal manner and started burning. Not to mention accidents. Boats and aircraft too.

They seldom explode unless the petrol vapour has reached explosive levels and someone does something stupid. They can however turn into a roman candle quite spectacularly especially certain Ferrari models and any car in a American cop show.

tdgeek

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#2258235 14-Jun-2019 15:06

frankv:

tdgeek:

On a serious note though, there was an eScooter that exploded recently, it was caught on CCTV. Petrol cars don't do this, and a 64kW battery set would probably be a big bang. Phones too.

Petrol cars do exactly that. I've seen two cars that were being driven in a normal manner and started burning. Not to mention accidents. Boats and aircraft too.

Not usually by spontaneous combustion.

MikeB4

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#2258239 14-Jun-2019 15:10

tdgeek:

frankv:

tdgeek:

On a serious note though, there was an eScooter that exploded recently, it was caught on CCTV. Petrol cars don't do this, and a 64kW battery set would probably be a big bang. Phones too.

Petrol cars do exactly that. I've seen two cars that were being driven in a normal manner and started burning. Not to mention accidents. Boats and aircraft too.

Not usually by spontaneous combustion.

The Austin/BL Allegro liked to burst into flames. I am not saying its a bad thing all BL cars should have gone that way especially the Marina and Princess 😇

tdgeek

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#2258246 14-Jun-2019 15:13

MikeB4:

Working, reliable, sustainable public transport that meets the users needs and not the accountants needs and EVs are the answer. The key is to get as many cars off the roads. My youngest has been living in London for a few years now and never purchased a car. He says he never needs one as the public transport is so good. He reckons a car would just be a giant pain in the butt. Now England/London is a lot different to Aotearoa, we too decentralized to go completely without personal transport but we could do a hell of a lot better if the alternatives were there. In Wellington it seems that the suburban trains never seem to be working in the weekend and are replaced with buses or private cars. That is a good example of why we are doing so badly.

Replacing ICE vehicles with EV or Hydrogen of chicken poop is not the answer.

I agree. We can do so much more. Public transport, cycles, scooters. Electric buses. They need to be cheaper and more of them. Make CBD's non car zones. Must be plenty of creative ideas. If any of us had out car off the road for a month we would manage it

EV's are the way to go, but its will be decades before that makes a difference to emissions. And nobody quote me 2050 or 2040, that wont happen

tdgeek

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#2258251 14-Jun-2019 15:21

MikeB4:

tdgeek:

frankv:

tdgeek:

On a serious note though, there was an eScooter that exploded recently, it was caught on CCTV. Petrol cars don't do this, and a 64kW battery set would probably be a big bang. Phones too.

Petrol cars do exactly that. I've seen two cars that were being driven in a normal manner and started burning. Not to mention accidents. Boats and aircraft too.

Not usually by spontaneous combustion.

The Austin/BL Allegro liked to burst into flames. I am not saying its a bad thing all BL cars should have gone that way especially the Marina and Princess 😇

I got a Marina for the wife. 1.3. Went to AshVegas for a wedding, took that. On the way home I passed a car and got stuck. Car to the left of me, angry car to the right, me in the middle, ran out of hp :-)

Obraik

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#2258261 14-Jun-2019 15:33

tdgeek:

Its not about the average people per home. Its about the "average home doesnt consume much more then 13kWh for the whole day" Your words

I didnt read your link as I knew it was wrong. I should have as its correct but you are wrong. You said not much more that [13kWh) it actually says between 15 and 28. 15 and 28 is "not much more than 13 per day"?

This is a difficult question to answer as it depends on a number of factors such as the type of house, size, number of people living in the property etc. As a very rough estimate a typical NZ home with 2 adults and 2 children would consume between 15 and 28 kWh per day.

Nevertheless large modern open plan homes with pool, aquarium and down lights can easily use between 40 and 50kWh per day with some households using as much as 60kWh of electricity per day.

As Ive stated twice, its already been raised here in the past. As a % of the grid, domestic power usage is very little. Very little. I was surprised. Its no solution, and if it was put in place, it would be uneconomical for the domestic homes and not make any material impact on he grid

Firstly, residential grid usage is 31%, the second highest user of the grid. In another link I posted further up from Stats NZ the average household in NZ is around 3 people. Using the average power consumption figures, that's around 18kWh. If a three person home has a 13kWh Powerwall then that's only 5kWh they now need to draw from the grid (assuming their solar system is big enough to fully charge a Powerwall).

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#2258313 14-Jun-2019 16:16

Your playing with vague numbers to try to make your post valid. It isn't. Your link stated its very difficult. It stated 15 to 28. It stated it can be more. Now you pick the stat and say its gospel?

Your link, which is a solar panel site that wants to give you figures to encourage you to buy solar (which is not viable), say "As a very rough estimate a typical NZ home with 2 adults and 2 children would consume between 15 and 28 kWh per day.

So you pick LG Solar Panels figures of 18.40 for 3 people yet they say that people can use 15 to 28 per day

In Summer my bill is about $3 per day. Lets say 10kW @ 25c plus 32c. Thats 2-80, so say 11kW per day. I have solar HW, gas cooktop. No power used there, yet I'm 11kW a day. Winter its 40kW or more. 28kW is probably my annual average. Yes I have two heatpumps, but HW is zero for 6 months and lower than most for the other 6 months. Cooktop is no usage for the year, so the 15 to 28 is still understated in my opinion.

Right, the national power issue. As Ive stated yet again I asked this about a year ago. Great idea, put solar on every house. Help the grid. No. The problem is you only have 2000 sunshine hours to play with. So you wont make much impression. I'll look for the thread later if I have time. So that's not worth it, as you get nowhere near the annual home usage. You generate most of what you use in Summer, and in Winter ,no sun, and more usage. Battery wont help that. I have a mate with a Powerwall, the app is on my phone. Today was cloudy. He has 30% self usage today, 23 from solar 7 from battery. The battery is now flat. Now no help tonight. When you generate power you dont need in Summer and generate bugger all when you use a lot in Winter it doesnt work. And asking people to buy this, it will cost them money, but it wont provide much usage to relieve the grid

debo

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#2258548 14-Jun-2019 22:59

I think that methane/CNG/LPG Gas Fuel Cells could be the way to until the battery supply problem is solved. Hydrogen is normally made from the stuff anyways. Using it directly solves the storage and supply problems of hydrogen. The infrastructure for Gas is already in place all around the country. It is 'instant charge', no range anxiety, no need to lug around heavy batteries, no need for a charging station at home/work. Yes it produces CO2 but so does the current fleet of vehicles.

tdgeek

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#2258559 14-Jun-2019 23:16

debo:

I think that methane/CNG/LPG Gas Fuel Cells could be the way to until the battery supply problem is solved. Hydrogen is normally made from the stuff anyways. Using it directly solves the storage and supply problems of hydrogen. The infrastructure for Gas is already in place all around the country. It is 'instant charge', no range anxiety, no need to lug around heavy batteries, no need for a charging station at home/work. Yes it produces CO2 but so does the current fleet of vehicles.

Makes sense. I'd forgot about those. What are the conversion costs?

LPG produces 33% less CO2 emissions than petrol and 45% less CO2 than diesel. LPG vehicles produce up to 82% less Nitrogen Oxide pollutants than petrol and 99% better than diesel

Conversion costs and fuel savings will determine viability.

Aredwood

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#2258577 15-Jun-2019 00:05

Those average household electricity usage figures dont make any allowances for other energy sources. EG gas (cooking, heating, hot water). Woodburners (which sometimes have wetback hot water heaters fitted as well). And people who dont heat their houses at all over winter. Either because they cant afford to, or their house is badly insulated and they cant justify the power usage needed to keep the house warm. There are also lots of apartment buildings that have central hot water systems. Meaning that the power usage per apartment will be very low. But if you get rid of Natural gas and LPG. This usage will need to be provided by extra electricity.

As for home battery storage, remember that batteries only have a limited lifetime. If you fully charge and discharge them every day, best case lifetime is 10 years. Yet a properly designed hydro dam will easily last 100 years.

As for solar and wind generation. Peak load is at around 8pm or so during winter. No sun, and there may be 0 wind as well. Therefore solar and wind power don't reduce the amount of other types of power generation that have to be built.

Obraik

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#2258701 15-Jun-2019 12:20

Aredwood: Those average household electricity usage figures dont make any allowances for other energy sources. EG gas (cooking, heating, hot water). Woodburners (which sometimes have wetback hot water heaters fitted as well). And people who dont heat their houses at all over winter. Either because they cant afford to, or their house is badly insulated and they cant justify the power usage needed to keep the house warm. There are also lots of apartment buildings that have central hot water systems. Meaning that the power usage per apartment will be very low. But if you get rid of Natural gas and LPG. This usage will need to be provided by extra electricity.

As for home battery storage, remember that batteries only have a limited lifetime. If you fully charge and discharge them every day, best case lifetime is 10 years. Yet a properly designed hydro dam will easily last 100 years.

As for solar and wind generation. Peak load is at around 8pm or so during winter. No sun, and there may be 0 wind as well. Therefore solar and wind power don't reduce the amount of other types of power generation that have to be built.

Well, being averages they would (or should) include those conditions too.

The battery lifespan is an issue but one that should improve as battery tech develops. Yeah, a hydro dam lasts longer but they've also become controversial due to their environmental impacts. I think if you're installing solar or wind installation (either residential or larger) you'd be foolish not to combine it with some kind of battery storage, precisely for that reason of peak load being when solar is ineffective. When you do combine them with storage they do have an impact on the requirement of other power generation sources.

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tdgeek

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#2258715 15-Jun-2019 12:41

Obraik:

Aredwood: Those average household electricity usage figures dont make any allowances for other energy sources. EG gas (cooking, heating, hot water). Woodburners (which sometimes have wetback hot water heaters fitted as well). And people who dont heat their houses at all over winter. Either because they cant afford to, or their house is badly insulated and they cant justify the power usage needed to keep the house warm. There are also lots of apartment buildings that have central hot water systems. Meaning that the power usage per apartment will be very low. But if you get rid of Natural gas and LPG. This usage will need to be provided by extra electricity.

As for home battery storage, remember that batteries only have a limited lifetime. If you fully charge and discharge them every day, best case lifetime is 10 years. Yet a properly designed hydro dam will easily last 100 years.

As for solar and wind generation. Peak load is at around 8pm or so during winter. No sun, and there may be 0 wind as well. Therefore solar and wind power don't reduce the amount of other types of power generation that have to be built.

Well, being averages they would (or should) include those conditions too.

The battery lifespan is an issue but one that should improve as battery tech develops. Yeah, a hydro dam lasts longer but they've also become controversial due to their environmental impacts. I think if you're installing solar or wind installation (either residential or larger) you'd be foolish not to combine it with some kind of battery storage, precisely for that reason of peak load being when solar is ineffective. When you do combine them with storage they do have an impact on the requirement of other power generation sources.

You are limited to 2000 hours a year. Many of those hours are in summer when you need little electricity. What this means is

A) The kWh gained form mass consumer solar is insignificant

B) The overall cost of your power is higher if you install solar PV and a battery, so for the vast majority, its a bad investment.

tdgeek

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#2258716 15-Jun-2019 12:44

Obraik:

Well, being averages they would (or should) include those conditions too.

As I mentioned, your figures are from a Solar PV seller. Designed to be low, to make the other calc of $ and panels much better. Those averages are about right for me. BUT I have gas cooktop, solar HW, so if I did not have these, it would be higher.

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