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88 posts

Master Geek
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# 249053 22-Apr-2019 21:16
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Hey Team,

 

 

 

With my daughter's recent arrival, we've found that our petrol bill has skyrocketed mainly due to Mum being out and about with Bubs in an effort to a) keep bubs busy, and b) retain sanity by having adult-adult interactions during the day.

 

 

 

Our current vehicle is. an '07 Outlander, which obviously isn't the most fuel efficient car.  We bought it a few years ago when we first started talking about kids.  We also have two dogs, hence the need for a larger car.

 

 

 

At the moment, I'm thinking of trading the 07 Outlander in and getting the 2019 PHEV.  We don't see a need for two cars, and with the Outlander just ticking over 100k, I'm assuming that some expensive maintenance bills may start rolling in. 

 

 

 

Would love to hear from others who have an Outlander PHEV of what they think so far.  We're in Tawa, Wellington so would love to understand how well she runs in pure EV mode with the various hills (especially Ngauranga gorge).  I also have family in Palmerston North so would be interested to hear what consumption is like when using the engine.


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518 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 2222473 22-Apr-2019 23:30
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If you use facebook, sign up for the NZ ev owners page and ask the same question, will get lots of responses.

Expect lots of people to get you a pure electric car instead, most of the suggestions of which will be to small for your needs. (although one of these would have enough space if you could make the range work: https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/nissan/auction-2024689813.htm?rsqid=59fd2defe3a54e4d9ea59d3bf35c0912-003)

I have never driven an outlander PHEV, but it is ment to be the best preforming variant of the range, so should do fine from a performance standpoint, especially compared to the 2.4L outlander from 2006.


 

Regarding your current outlander, My farther 2006 has 250,000km on it, and is still going fine (if noticeably tired) only one significant repair in that time, would expect yours to get similar mileage, especially if you don't tow with it.

That said, the 2007 generation of outlander has quite bad acoustics. New generation is ment to be way better, with the PHEV a step above the other drive trains (extra acoustic insulation in that one). Might be worth upgrading simply to get a nicer car.


Note that the UK has got a new "2019 outlander PHEV" that has yet to arrive on our shores (2.4L engine rather than 2.0, and other updates.

Also note that the Outlander PHEV is only available as a 5 seater, and doesn't carry a spare tire like other out-lander drive train options.


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Uber Geek
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  # 2222478 23-Apr-2019 00:57
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Just keep your current car, or consider buying a cheap Nissan Leaf. (and still keep your outlander for family trips / long drives) Assuming that you can offload a good chunk of your driving to the Leaf.

According to the Mitsubishi website. The Outlander PHEV costs $23,000 more than the non PHEV version. (base models for both, excluding ORC). A quick Google suggests that your current Outlander would use 9.3L per 100K. You have been driving approx 8,333Km per year. If we round that up to 10,000Km and Assume that petrol costs $2.50 per L. (cheapest petrol in Auckland is $2.04 per L according to Gaspy). Then you would be spending $2325 per year on petrol. Or 9.8 Years just to recoup the price difference of the more expensive PHEV outlander. And that is assuming that you wont be spending any money on petrol after buying the PHEV. And doesn't include the price difference between your current outlander and a brand new petrol only Outlander.

Also, PHEV cars only exist to solve 2 problems that are not as much of a problem anymore. Poor EV range - You can get EVs with larger battery packs now. And lack of public charging - far more public chargers available now.

And your current outlander wont deprecate anywhere near as much, now that it has done over 100,000K.

Manufacturers fuel economy ratings AFAIK dont include any allowance for the extra fuel that all car engines use when cold. Which is another reason why owning an EV and an ICE car makes alot of sense. As short trips in slow traffic = worst type of driving for an ICE car. But perfect for an EV. While long trips at motorway speeds are the most stressful on an EVs batteries. But are the ideal operating conditions for an ICE car. (best fuel economy and lowest engine wear).





 
 
 
 


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Uber Geek
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  # 2222486 23-Apr-2019 08:03
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I took an Outlander PHEV for a test drive last week, on the basis it’s the lead contender (at this point) when it comes time to replace my current car - partly because it’s the only decently sized yet relatively affordable PHEV.

I asked the salesman about the 2.5, and he said there are no firm intentions to bring it here. Wasn’t it only the end of last year when the revised version with the better battery range came out here?

What is the electric range of the older versions? Rather than the latest model, one of these older ones could make better financial sense. The idea above of having a Leaf as an additional car is also worth looking at, given the outlay and depreciation will be soooo much lower.

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  # 2222489 23-Apr-2019 08:11
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Aredwood:

Manufacturers fuel economy ratings AFAIK dont include any allowance for the extra fuel that all car engines use when cold. Which is another reason why owning an EV and an ICE car makes alot of sense. As short trips in slow traffic = worst type of driving for an ICE car. But perfect for an EV. While long trips at motorway speeds are the most stressful on an EVs batteries. But are the ideal operating conditions for an ICE car. (best fuel economy and lowest engine wear).


But this is one of the key reasons I’m looking at a PHEV - ie the ability to run on electric only within the city, where my frequent but short trips on petrol or diesel (in my case) are so inefficient. Having a PHEV does provide the best of both worlds for many - in my case I could easily se myself never having to use the petrol motor unless travelling out of town.

While I’d much prefer a BEV with significant range, it’ll be many years until models large enough for a family and all their junk are within my price range. Until then, having a Leaf (my wife’s current car) and a PHEV (for me) makes a lot of sense.



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Master Geek
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  # 2222529 23-Apr-2019 08:49
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Thanks for the great responses.  Definitely some things to think about, especially given the things said by @aredwood.  Most of our driving could actually be done with a Leaf, so I think we need to reconsider our preference for having a single car.  A quick look on TM and I can see 2016/207 30kwh for $30-$35k + whatever the cost of a home charger is.


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Master Geek
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  # 2222530 23-Apr-2019 08:57
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We bought a 2017 model ex-demo in Feb 2018 and it has been our sole family vehicle since. Mostly flat driving, in Christchurch. Here are a few thoughts.

 

 

It will never make economic sense. I knew that when we bought it. We wanted a vehicle of sufficient size for family trips with our large dog, that could also be mostly free of fossil fuel use in regular weekday commuting. By those criteria, it does its job very well. It's also an enjoyable drive, comfortable and quiet.

 

 

Do not expect it to be anything close to a "100% solution" for avoiding fossil fuels - at best, it will be "90%" by which I mean fuel consumption around 10% of that for a comparable petrol/diesel vehicle. Even if you charge every night, almost always drive under 20 to 30 km each day, and barely ever need petrol, the car forces around 60 litres of petrol use per year to avoid stale fuel. If you haven't bought fuel in the past three months, it will switch to forced petrol use until at least 15 litres is added.

 

 

I bought it expecting it to reduce our petrol consumption by 80 to 90% - aiming for under 1.5 L/100km overall. Because we haven't had many long trips, it has reduced our petrol use 90% so far. We've used approx 110 litres for 15,000 km. That's around 0.75 L/100km.

 

 

Battery degradation is much worse than most EVs. However, the general consensus is that this appears to be a software problem, with the battery management system being far too conservative. Hopefully in time Mitsubishi will get it sorted. There is lots of info about it online, e.g. myoutlanderphev.com, phevwatchdog.net, and the "Unplugged EV" YouTube channel.

 

 

From a full charge, our electric-only range started out about 50 km Summer / 40 km Winter. Now it is around 40 km Summer, and maybe 30 km this coming Winter? The degradation is severe at first but then it flattens out. Our PHEV should still be sufficient for quiet all-electric commuting most weekdays for years yet. By then, perhaps battery replacement will be a lot cheaper than today.

 

 




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Master Geek
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  # 2222531 23-Apr-2019 09:09
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@heapsort great to hear about your experience so far! 110L for 15k sounds bloody brilliant.  For the PHEV we don't expect 100% EV usage For us, it's more about freeing up cashflow while Mum isn't working (and probably won't be for the next ~5 years).  The last few months have seen us spending~$500 a month on petrol (short car trips are horrific).  I'd rather be repaying the car loan with that money.

 

 

 

As an FYI to everyone else, Mitsubishi just responded to my email about the 2.4 model, and long story short, they're hoping to get it in within the next 12 months.


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  # 2222537 23-Apr-2019 09:14
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Trust me, as someone at the other end of family life with kids starting to leave for uni you are not going to save money by trading an existing vehicle for something much newer just based on fuel costs unless you keep the new car for a long time.

 

I chopped and changed cars as our family grew and I regret not buying our X5 and a smaller daily as soon as number 3 came along. Fuel costs would have been more but selling and buying a car every two/three years meant we lost a lot more.

 

My advice is you will need two cars soon enough, so have something which can take a couple of kids and a couple of dogs and something suitable for the daily work and leave it at that.


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  # 2222538 23-Apr-2019 09:18
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Smix:

 

@heapsort great to hear about your experience so far! 110L for 15k sounds bloody brilliant.  For the PHEV we don't expect 100% EV usage For us, it's more about freeing up cashflow while Mum isn't working (and probably won't be for the next ~5 years).  The last few months have seen us spending~$500 a month on petrol (short car trips are horrific).  I'd rather be repaying the car loan with that money.

 

 

 

As an FYI to everyone else, Mitsubishi just responded to my email about the 2.4 model, and long story short, they're hoping to get it in within the next 12 months.

 

 

 

 

The really isn't making much sense to me...  You're going to get a new car that will depreciate massively as soon as you drive it off the lot so you can pay a loan + interest instead of a petrol bill?   Do as @Aredwood already did, run the numbers, and I suspect you'll find there isn't much chance you will save any money by doing this....


139 posts

Master Geek
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  # 2222539 23-Apr-2019 09:36
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I agree with recent responses, a new or near-new PHEV is not a good way to free up cashflow. It did the opposite for us. We reduced $2000/year in petrol to $200/year but it might not do so well at reducing $500/month petrol bills unless there were opportunities to recharge during the day in between short trips. (And standard outlet wall charging is slow: about 7 km distance recharged per hour.)

 

 

The PHEV has some benefits. It is nice to know we can take a long road trip with whole family including dog and gear in comfort, not cramped, and not needing to stop at fast chargers along the way. But if reducing petrol cost was the primary motive, we would have purchased a used Leaf. It would have made far more economic sense.

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Uber Geek
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  # 2222541 23-Apr-2019 09:40
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Smix:

Thanks for the great responses.  Definitely some things to think about, especially given the things said by @aredwood.  Most of our driving could actually be done with a Leaf, so I think we need to reconsider our preference for having a single car.  A quick look on TM and I can see 2016/207 30kwh for $30-$35k + whatever the cost of a home charger is.



Is there an absolute need to get a Leaf that recent and with 30kwh battery? If it’s for the daily runaround then I imagine you can easily save 10 to 15 thousand by going for an older 24kwh model. The lower the outlay the better the chance it’ll be a better financial decision.

We still get a reading of 135km on full charge for our 2013 Leaf. Let’s say that’s a real-world range of 100km - how often are you going to be exceeding that on a daily basis (assuming this is your second car)?

At home it’s not critical to have fast charging ability, given it’s not a huge battery and will charge overnight. We find having 16A caravan charging useful as we’re with EK, so get most of our charging done free within our hour of free power.

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Master Geek
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  # 2222546 23-Apr-2019 09:46
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From flipthefleet.org I have access to a lot of stats on Outlander PHEVs. The Outlander PHEVs definitely have their use case. 

 

The median efficiency is around 25 km/L, with some cars that only run on petrol at 6 km/L and others that nearly completely run in EV mode reaching over 100 km/L.

 

Over 50% of trips of the PHEVs are within the range of the battery.

 

The maintenance costs of the PHEV are similar to an ICE car.

 

What I've done is keep a larger ICE car (Outback) and get a Nissan Leaf. The Nissan Leaf does around 25,000 km/year and the Outback around 4,000 km/year (we need two cars anyway). With more chargers we are now finding now that are even using the Leaf for trips that had to use the Outback for (just did a 400 km trip yesterday in the Leaf).

 

One future unknown is how the government is going to treat PHEVs with RUCs. One possibility is that they could do it as a mean fixed percentage of kms (i.e., assume 50% EV mode) in which case using a PHEV in almost pure EV mode would reduce RUC cost compared to pure EVs.




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Master Geek
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  # 2222548 23-Apr-2019 09:48
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Thanks again for the feedback everyone.  Looks like I need to realign my thinking - must've been looking at the wrong angle.

 

 

 

@jonathan18 we are considering moving in the next few years so the longer range would be good to have (we like the look of the Kapiti region).


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  # 2222587 23-Apr-2019 10:17
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I have vowed to never buy another petrol only vehicle and am researching replacing my Camry Hybrid. I took a Outlander PHEV for a test drive but found it very truck like in its handling. Obviously not a problem for the OP because they already drive one.
I also want to be able to tow a domestic trailer, which my Camry isn't rated to do. From my research the only hybrid vehicles that are rated to tow are the Outlander PHEV and the new Toyota RAV4, and the only BEV is the the Tesla Model X. So if the OP sees towing, even modest loads, in his future he may want to consider that.
In my case the $3000 premium that Toyota command for hybrid over pure ICE models is acceptable to get a vehicle that does about 5l/100km in real world driving. I do wish they had a plug-in option in more than just the Prius Prime, but battery cost is the main impediment at the moment, a bigger battery to achieve say 50km EV range would probably add $10-15K to the price.
I am a fan of the Toyota Hybrid Synergy drive system (I refuse to buy into the 'self charging hybrid' advertising bs though) which has 20+ years of development under its belt.

Edit: As far as RUCs go for PHEVs, from my perspective, while there is still a tax on petrol you are already paying to use the road through that. If you're clever enough to have a PHEV and use very little petrol, then all power to you (no pun intended).




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  # 2222595 23-Apr-2019 10:58
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This reviewer is not a fan of the Outlander PHEV link here


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