Israel Folau saga.

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#2264935 26-Jun-2019 11:54

surfisup1000:

tdgeek:

Yes, the code of conduct that was spelt out in Handle9 link was very clear as to what discrimination about others means. If he signed that, he knew. he also knew he can post religious posts which he did as others did, that were fine. So, when eh went over the line he was warned. Every opportunity to be aware and then some

The handle9 link is a good read. But, you don't seem to have read the entire article. The author has no clue who will win. . .

And then there’s also, always in these cases there’s the risk they (rugby australia) could lose.

It doesn't help your argument by quoting articles that say Rugby australia might lose.

You are letting your strong beliefs cloud the reality that it is possible Folau might win.

My strong beliefs? I never said they will win, not have I said they might lose. I have said it comes down to the legal wording and no one knows. My opinion as I have stated a have others is that , no dont worry no point repeating

tdgeek

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#2264938 26-Jun-2019 12:00

surfisup1000:

tdgeek:

Its not opinion. he has posted as have others, freely, and so on. Im sure RA would be happy to throw 8 million at a loser. If they paid him out the 4, thats still a win for the loser, thats not justice.

You just have no concept of fact and opinion.

Most here disagree with your support of his legal case. Various articles dont paint a pretty picture based on the facts of what he signed what he did and what he was warned about. The facts are very clear, read any newspaper, there is no secret. The opinion comes into where the line is drawn for him being muffled due to religious freedom. My opinion is that he has been give a great deal of religious freedom and have others, thats a fact. Its my opinion that his extension to gays going to hell goes beyond that line

You see facts and opinion differently it seems.

tdgeek

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#2264949 26-Jun-2019 12:29

Perhaps the missing issue is that while most of us here despise his actions, despising his actions is not the reason to decide he should lose the court action, if it went that far. There are many facts. Black and White facts. The wording of his posts, the history, the warnings, tha father, th code of conduct wording. There are also the opinions on the line between religious belief and targeting others in the manner that he has. That's the grey area

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#2264953 26-Jun-2019 12:37

tdgeek:

Perhaps the missing issue is that while most of us here despise his actions, despising his actions is not the reason to decide he should lose the court action, if it went that far. There are many facts. Black and White facts. The wording of his posts, the history, the warnings, tha father, th code of conduct wording. There are also the opinions on the line between religious belief and targeting others in the manner that he has. That's the grey area

Worth noting there is no grey area on the human rights of fellow Rugby Australia members to not face discrimination on the basis of sex or gender.

frankv

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#2264954 26-Jun-2019 12:38

Varkk:

I think he is also being manipulated by his father. I recall after the latest post, he had initially agreed with RA to take it down and apologise. Then he apparently talked to his father about it. After that he doubled down on it all and set the collision course with RA that led to losing his contract. In the meantime he has been very vocal and active in his father's church. Posting videos of him speaking to the congregation etc.

One man's manipulation is another man's convincing argument.

Presumably his father holds the same kinds of beliefs about Christianity and gays and hell. Conceivably, his father said "Son, you stick up for your beliefs and do what you think is right".

jonathan18

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#2264956 26-Jun-2019 12:47

Stuff has republished an interesting opinion piece/backgrounder on the reasons behind why matters of sex and gender are particular flashpoints when it comes to contemporary Christianity:

As Simon Smart has argued, the changing cultural mores around questions of sex, gender and sexuality are at the centre of the debate over Folau's social media posts and the reaction among Christians to his sacking.

These new cultural mores are posing significant legal, doctrinal, and ethical challenges to Christian churches. For many, the identity of Christianity is at stake. The traditional line on sexuality and gender must be held – so it is said.

But not all Christians see it that way. The line is not so sharply defined.

There are many other Christians who find it hard to understand how traditional teachings on sexuality and gender have been elevated to such a prominent place within some strands of Christianity...

The puzzle, to many, is how these issues have become so definitive to Christian thinking. For these Christians, there's also a deep disquiet that sexuality and gender are being held up as a test case for religious freedom in Australia.

I thought this was particularly interesting:

A 2017 McCrindle survey found that the church's objection to homosexuality was the biggest obstacle preventing people from becoming more religious in Australia, much more so than the role of women in Christianity and the debate over science and evolution.

This divide seems likely to only grow, as it is the more conservative churches that are experiencing increases in their popularity; and I'm guessing that one of the reasons behind this growth is that very social 'liberalisation' (same-sex marriage etc).

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/113781646/israel-folau-saga-shows-sex-like-money-does-strange-things-to-religion

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#2264985 26-Jun-2019 13:50

Imo this ongoing thing over time will be doing a lot of damage in some areas to young LGBTI especially.

Which of course is exactly why Rugby Australia doesn't want players to use their celebrity to say this kind of stuff in the first place.

I'd like to see a fundraiser for young LGBTI support in Australia and NZ to attempt to undo or at least mitigate some of this damage.

Handle9

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#2264987 26-Jun-2019 13:52

gzt: Imo this ongoing thing over time will be doing a lot of damage in some areas to young LGBTI especially.

Which of course is exactly why Rugby Australia doesn't want players to use their celebrity to say this kind of stuff in the first place.

I'd like to see a fundraiser for young LGBTI support in Australia and NZ to attempt to undo or at least mitigate some of this damage.

https://www.gofundme.com/f/forlove-aus

surfisup1000

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#2265026 26-Jun-2019 13:53

tdgeek:

Most here disagree with your support of his legal case.

Don't you support him being able to go to court to argue his side?

Surely that is his legal right?

Handle9

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#2265029 26-Jun-2019 14:00

surfisup1000:
tdgeek:

Most here disagree with your support of his legal case.

Don't you support him being able to go to court to argue his side?

Surely that is his legal right?

He's got a legal right but not a moral or ethical right.

He is a hypocrite who is taking money from rugby clubs throughout Australia.

tdgeek

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#2265035 26-Jun-2019 14:07

surfisup1000:

tdgeek:

Most here disagree with your support of his legal case.

Don't you support him being able to go to court to argue his side?

Surely that is his legal right?

Off course it is.

[Most here disagree with your support of his legal case.] Which is the hell comments being religious belief that he is denied. That's your opinion and that's fine. I hope it is not settled, and that we get a decision, whatever that may be

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gzt

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#2265036 26-Jun-2019 14:07

tdgeek: AFAIK, the Bible is a collection of stories over time. Corinthians, as per this issue, where is that from?

The apostle Paul who was born after the death of Jesus.

surfisup1000

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#2265070 26-Jun-2019 14:41

tdgeek:

surfisup1000:

tdgeek:

Most here disagree with your support of his legal case.

Don't you support him being able to go to court to argue his side?

Surely that is his legal right?

Off course it is.

[Most here disagree with your support of his legal case.] Which is the hell comments being religious belief that he is denied. That's your opinion and that's fine. I hope it is not settled, and that we get a decision, whatever that may be

Good, you support his legal right to use the courts. Your grammar is a bit difficult to understand, so forgive me if I misunderstand you.

Are you claiming that I support the content of Folaus tweet? Can you show me where I said that? Because I didn't, and I don't.

As for your claim that most people agree with you... how on earth could you ever know that? Folau has received significant support and raised a lot of money for his cause. Speculation does you no credit.

tdgeek

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#2265073 26-Jun-2019 14:49

surfisup1000:

tdgeek:

surfisup1000:

tdgeek:

Most here disagree with your support of his legal case.

Don't you support him being able to go to court to argue his side?

Surely that is his legal right?

Off course it is.

[Most here disagree with your support of his legal case.] Which is the hell comments being religious belief that he is denied. That's your opinion and that's fine. I hope it is not settled, and that we get a decision, whatever that may be

Good, you support his legal right to use the courts. Your grammar is a bit difficult to understand, so forgive me if I misunderstand you.

Are you claiming that I support the content of Folaus tweet? Can you show me where I said that? Because I didn't, and I don't.

As for your claim that most people agree with you... how on earth could you ever know that? Folau has received significant support and raised a lot of money for his cause. Speculation does you no credit.

I dont feel you support his tweets, but that you support that all of his tweets are religious beliefs. Thats fine

Annecdotally, there seems a feel here that most see him wrong, in the medai, the same, Thats what I see

GV27

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#2265074 26-Jun-2019 14:49

surfisup1000:

Good, you support his legal right to use the courts. Your grammar is a bit difficult to understand, so forgive me if I misunderstand you.

Are you claiming that I support the content of Folaus tweet? Can you show me where I said that? Because I didn't, and I don't.

As for your claim that most people agree with you... how on earth could you ever know that? Folau has received significant support and raised a lot of money for his cause. Speculation does you no credit.

Folau is conflating his cause to be an issue of freedom of religion, not an employment issue. He is intentionally mischaracterising the nature of his sacking (IMO, IANAL, etc).

Meanwhile, across Aus/NZ today: probably a few LBTQI kids/adults will commit suicide. That is not a mischaracterisation, it is a statistical inevitability. I know which one is the greater tragedy.

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