Israel Folau saga.

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Mad Scientist
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#2265300 26-Jun-2019 21:14

People give big money to all sorts of things. How much donations did Clinton and Trump get? How much do people throw away at the Skycity in one night?

The fact that people give money to Folau is no different from donations to Clinton and Trump or betting all in at the local casino.

THere doesn't always need to be a reason to give money.

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#2265399 26-Jun-2019 22:28

Batman:

People give big money to all sorts of things. How much donations did Clinton and Trump get? How much do people throw away at the Skycity in one night?

The fact that people give money to Folau is no different from donations to Clinton and Trump or betting all in at the local casino.

THere doesn't always need to be a reason to give money.

Yes, people donate to a poetical party. Have a night out. Donate to support a bigot. No, scratch that last one

What it shows is one of two things, or maybe both.

1. Church extremists have plenty of cash

2.There is a lot of discrimination out there

Batman

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#2265413 26-Jun-2019 22:46

you are exactly right.

do you know how many Billions of dollars Saudi gives to the western nations in donations and business deals?

what does Saudi stand for? far worse than Folau by a magnitude of a million.

people take money too. and sometimes people don't need reasons to take money.

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#2265414 26-Jun-2019 22:49

Batman:

you are exactly right.

do you know how many Billions of dollars Saudi gives to the western nations in donations and business deals?

what does Saudi stand for? far worse than Folau by a magnitude of a million.

people take money too. and sometimes people don't need reasons to take money.

What on earth are you trying to say?

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#2265443 27-Jun-2019 06:55

Handle9:
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-25/israel-folau-crowdfunding-free-speech-simon-longstaff-analysis/11245082?pfmredir=sm

Again, good read.

I don't agree with this though:

However, if the conscience of an employee should be respected, then so should that of the employer.

I think it's totally dodgy to assign consciences to corporations. They are not human, with human attributes. Their primary goal is profit. Corporations act within the law (generally speaking) rather than within some more restrictive ethical bounds. There are endless examples of corporations acting in immoral, unethical, and sometimes illegal ways. RA's concern is not some moral issue about not discriminating against minorities; rather, it's about the effect on their "brand" of the *appearance* of not being nice. It's about protecting assets, marketing, and money.

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#2265444 27-Jun-2019 06:59

frankv:

I think it's totally dodgy to assign consciences to corporations. They are not human, with human attributes. Their primary goal is profit. Corporations act within the law (generally speaking) rather than within some more restrictive ethical bounds. There are endless examples of corporations acting in immoral, unethical, and sometimes illegal ways. RA's concern is not some moral issue about not discriminating against minorities; rather, it's about the effect on their "brand" of the *appearance* of not being nice. It's about protecting assets, marketing, and money.

Ah yes, that definitely gives me the right to just relentlessly intimidate people in my workplace based on their sexual orientation. Because it's a limited liability company.

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#2265446 27-Jun-2019 07:19

frankv:

Handle9:
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-25/israel-folau-crowdfunding-free-speech-simon-longstaff-analysis/11245082?pfmredir=sm

Again, good read.

I don't agree with this though:

However, if the conscience of an employee should be respected, then so should that of the employer.

I think it's totally dodgy to assign consciences to corporations. They are not human, with human attributes. Their primary goal is profit. Corporations act within the law (generally speaking) rather than within some more restrictive ethical bounds. There are endless examples of corporations acting in immoral, unethical, and sometimes illegal ways. RA's concern is not some moral issue about not discriminating against minorities; rather, it's about the effect on their "brand" of the *appearance* of not being nice. It's about protecting assets, marketing, and money.

The primary goal an employee is profit

RA has ethical bounds, its fires people who represents them and profess bigotted rants

There are endless examples of people acting in immoral, unethical, and sometimes illegal ways.

RA's concern is a moral issue about not discriminating against minorities

Yes, RA is about the effect on their "brand" of the appearance of not being nice. It's about protecting assets, marketing, and money. (Like my first point) Thats why individuals generally dont acted in a bigoted manner as it affects them also. RA is protecting their employees who are not mass discriminators

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#2265659 27-Jun-2019 10:35

GV27:

frankv:

I think it's totally dodgy to assign consciences to corporations. They are not human, with human attributes. Their primary goal is profit. Corporations act within the law (generally speaking) rather than within some more restrictive ethical bounds. There are endless examples of corporations acting in immoral, unethical, and sometimes illegal ways. RA's concern is not some moral issue about not discriminating against minorities; rather, it's about the effect on their "brand" of the *appearance* of not being nice. It's about protecting assets, marketing, and money.

Ah yes, that definitely gives me the right to just relentlessly intimidate people in my workplace based on their sexual orientation. Because it's a limited liability company.

Sorry??? Nowhere do I say that it gives an employee that right. Employees are people, and bound by ethical and legal constraints. Whether they work for a LLC, are self-employed, or don't work at all.

I'm just saying that a corporation isn't a person, and doesn't have a conscience. The best you can hope for is that the people running the company have consciences.

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#2265677 27-Jun-2019 11:22

frankv:

Sorry??? Nowhere do I say that it gives an employee that right. Employees are people, and bound by ethical and legal constraints. Whether they work for a LLC, are self-employed, or don't work at all.

I'm just saying that a corporation isn't a person, and doesn't have a conscience. The best you can hope for is that the people running the company have consciences.

I fail to see how a company setting values and guidelines for employees is any less arbitrary than insisting on literal interpretations of religious texts as a basis for your own actions (or as an excuse).

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#2265689 27-Jun-2019 11:41

blackjack17: You and all Christian should be able to threaten eternal pain to all those who don't believe as you do.

That's just the thing. From a Christian perspective, such statements aren't intended as threats. Rather, they're warnings given in the hope that "eternal pain" would be avoided by all.

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#2265703 27-Jun-2019 12:21

mm1352000:

That's just the thing. From a Christian perspective, such statements aren't intended as threats. Rather, they're warnings given in the hope that "eternal pain" would be avoided by all.

why would people who don't believe in "eternal pain" heed that warning and try to avoid it?

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#2265714 27-Jun-2019 12:32

After 14 pages I can't say I'm surprised that we can't agree on who is the aggressor and who is the victim, but I think we should acknowledge that we probably all agree on one thing; there are fanatics on at least one side of the debate, and they are likely to cause serious harm to somebody.

Maybe it's time for everyone, including Izzy, to take a breather so that the situation doesn't get inflamed any further.

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#2265715 27-Jun-2019 12:35

blackjack17:

alasta:

The problem with discussions like this is that they promote a narrative where homosexuals are under attack from both sexuals and christians. From what I've seen, the reality is that sexuals are actually very protective of homosexuals and therefore the conflict is really between sexuals+homosexuals versus christians.

If you look at it from that perspective then it's the christians who are the vulnerable minority, and I can't help worrying about how some of this narrative may be affecting christians who are not as confident and outspoken as Israel Falou. They are probably the ones who are contributing towards what now seems to be a whopping sum of money.

What is a "sexual"?

I too am intrigued by this term - @alasta, any chance you can define this for us so we can better understand your post? (perhaps an auto-correct issue?)

alasta

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#2265716 27-Jun-2019 12:38

jonathan18:

blackjack17:

alasta:

The problem with discussions like this is that they promote a narrative where homosexuals are under attack from both sexuals and christians. From what I've seen, the reality is that sexuals are actually very protective of homosexuals and therefore the conflict is really between sexuals+homosexuals versus christians.

What is a "sexual"?

I too am intrigued by this term - @alasta, any chance you can define this for us so we can better understand your post? (perhaps an auto-correct issue?)

It's probably just a case of me not knowing the correct modern terminology.

My post was intended to refer to "sexuals" as those who have sexual relationships with the opposite sex, and "homosexuals" as those who have sexual relationships with the same sex.

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#2265720 27-Jun-2019 12:52

alasta:

It's probably just a case of me not knowing the correct modern terminology.

My post was intended to refer to "sexuals" as those who have sexual relationships with the opposite sex, and "homosexuals" as those who have sexual relationships with the same sex.

The word you're looking for is heterosexual.

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