Israel Folau saga.

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#2266197 28-Jun-2019 11:58

mm1352000:

frankv:

The problem is the underlying mindset.

People in this thread have said repeatedly that people can believe whatever they like. Sounds like you may disagree. Could you please be a little more specific about what you're referring to when you say "the underlying mindset"?

The underlying mindset that homosexuality is abnormal and sinful and something that can/should be "cured" (or at least should be repented of). Similarly, fornication (I originally wrote adultery, but got the meanings back to front) as in sex between unwed people, which is pretty much the norm nowadays (and probably was forever).

This is not about religious beliefs, but human rights beliefs. I have no problem with people believing in any number of deities, and performing whatever rites and rituals they want to appease them and/or secure eternal happiness. But I draw the line at the point where their religious beliefs lead them to the conclusion that some group of people have fewer rights. e.g. a religion which requires human sacrifice, or killing non-believers.

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#2266213 28-Jun-2019 12:11

nitro:

frankv:

nitro:

the problem is the approach that was taken.

if the tweet were something of, 'there is a better way to lead your lives. come join us and we will show you how'... rather than 'repent or you will burn in hell'...

Yeah nah.

That makes sense for thieves and liars and drunks. But for homosexuals and adulterers?

The problem is the underlying mindset.

so repeat offenders, often in escalating gravity, have a better mindset?

Sorry, I don't follow this at all. I don't see any connection to repeat offenders nor escalating gravity. What's your point there?

also, i'm not sure if homosexuals (adulterers may be a different case) have hurt other people by simply being homosexuals, other than themselves if they do end up in hell.

I agree... homosexuals don't hurt anyone by being homosexuals.

I should have said fornicators, as in sex between unwed people, not adulterers. Adulterers is certainly different.

Labelling premarital sex and homosexuality as somehow "bad" (otherwise their "Christian" way of life wouldn't be "better"), which is implicit in the suggested alternative, is certainly a belief that isn't evidence-based.

Rikkitic

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#2266215 28-Jun-2019 12:15

frankv:

This is not about religious beliefs, but human rights beliefs. I have no problem with people believing in any number of deities, and performing whatever rites and rituals they want to appease them and/or secure eternal happiness. But I draw the line at the point where their religious beliefs lead them to the conclusion that some group of people have fewer rights. e.g. a religion which requires human sacrifice, or killing non-believers.

I second the above but would take it further. Everyone has the right to believe whatever they like and that right should be respected and protected by law. But there is no right to use religious belief as an excuse to dictate how others should live or be treated. Religion is given far too much credibility in our society, even today. It is like the Mongrel Mob. Priests (and some pastors of other religions) have used the institution of religion as a meat market for child abuse. Why should someone wearing a dog collar be accorded special respect or trust? I have no problem at all with spirituality or expressions of that, but I think institutional religion is a lie and completely undeserving of any special status such as tax exemption or prayers in Parliament. I make exception only for the Salvation Army, which in spite of the religious mumbo-jumbo actually practices what it preaches and for the most part seems to have a good history of integrity and walking the talk.

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nitro

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#2266222 28-Jun-2019 12:27

hmmn...

i said, if folau's message was on a positive tone, rather than condescending/condemning one, there would not have been an issue.

you said "That makes sense for thieves and liars and drunks."

which i don't agree with, and present as evidence the repeat offenders.

how many campaigns have we seen about drink driving? repeat offenders suggest they don't make sense for that group.

frankv:

nitro:

frankv:

nitro:

the problem is the approach that was taken.

if the tweet were something of, 'there is a better way to lead your lives. come join us and we will show you how'... rather than 'repent or you will burn in hell'...

Yeah nah.

That makes sense for thieves and liars and drunks. But for homosexuals and adulterers?

The problem is the underlying mindset.

so repeat offenders, often in escalating gravity, have a better mindset?

Sorry, I don't follow this at all. I don't see any connection to repeat offenders nor escalating gravity. What's your point there?

also, i'm not sure if homosexuals (adulterers may be a different case) have hurt other people by simply being homosexuals, other than themselves if they do end up in hell.

I agree... homosexuals don't hurt anyone by being homosexuals.

I should have said fornicators, as in sex between unwed people, not adulterers. Adulterers is certainly different.

Labelling premarital sex and homosexuality as somehow "bad" (otherwise their "Christian" way of life wouldn't be "better"), which is implicit in the suggested alternative, is certainly a belief that isn't evidence-based.

mm1352000

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#2266226 28-Jun-2019 12:42

frankv:

mm1352000:

frankv:

The problem is the underlying mindset.

People in this thread have said repeatedly that people can believe whatever they like. Sounds like you may disagree. Could you please be a little more specific about what you're referring to when you say "the underlying mindset"?

The underlying mindset that homosexuality is abnormal and sinful and something that can/should be "cured" (or at least should be repented of). Similarly, fornication (I originally wrote adultery, but got the meanings back to front) as in sex between unwed people, which is pretty much the norm nowadays (and probably was forever).

This is not about religious beliefs, but human rights beliefs. I have no problem with people believing in any number of deities, and performing whatever rites and rituals they want to appease them and/or secure eternal happiness. But I draw the line at the point where their religious beliefs lead them to the conclusion that some group of people have fewer rights. e.g. a religion which requires human sacrifice, or killing non-believers.

For what it's worth, no Christian I've ever met - even those who have a problem with homosexuality and/or fornication - has ever implied that they think any person has less rights than any other person. Quite the contrary in fact. The claim I've heard is that everybody sins in one way or another, and no sin is worse than any other (because all sin separates people from God).

mm1352000

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#2266228 28-Jun-2019 12:44

Rikkitic:

But there is no right to use religious belief as an excuse to dictate how others should live or be treated.

To be clear, would you say Folau is/was doing this, or do you simply disagree with Folau's beliefs?

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frankv

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#2266233 28-Jun-2019 12:55

nitro:

hmmn...

i said, if folau's message was on a positive tone, rather than condescending/condemning one, there would not have been an issue.

you said "That makes sense for thieves and liars and drunks."

which i don't agree with, and present as evidence the repeat offenders.

how many campaigns have we seen about drink driving? repeat offenders suggest they don't make sense for that group.

Ahhh, gotcha now.

No-one's taken issue (AFAIK) with Folau's inclusion of thieves and liars and drunks in his tweet. The various Christian churches have long condemned these things, so I don't think threats of hellfire are actually that successful either. I don't see threatening repeat drink drivers with hellfire will make a jot of difference.

I haven't actually seen any significant attempt at using a positive "You're doing the wrong thing, let me show you the right way" tone towards any of those 3 groups. If you consider drug addicts to be similar to alcoholics, then possibly the Govt's approach to treating drug users as a health rather than criminal problem is an example that looks like it may work? Possibly some of the people working with the homeless take this approach to alcoholics?

nitro

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#2266268 28-Jun-2019 13:48

frankv:

Ahhh, gotcha now.

No-one's taken issue (AFAIK) with Folau's inclusion of thieves and liars and drunks in his tweet. The various Christian churches have long condemned these things, so I don't think threats of hellfire are actually that successful either. I don't see threatening repeat drink drivers with hellfire will make a jot of difference.

I haven't actually seen any significant attempt at using a positive "You're doing the wrong thing, let me show you the right way" tone towards any of those 3 groups. If you consider drug addicts to be similar to alcoholics, then possibly the Govt's approach to treating drug users as a health rather than criminal problem is an example that looks like it may work? Possibly some of the people working with the homeless take this approach to alcoholics?

i do agree with you regarding these specific issues. and yes, there really aren't all that many attempts to come at these issues from more positive notes.

the problem is that while most of these drunks, thieves and liars know and accept that what they are doing is wrong (some exception in the case of pathological liars/sociopaths)... that they are committing offences against the law of the land...

homosexuals really aren't on the same boat. it is not illegal in either NZ or Aus (presumably the bulk of folau's twitter followers) to be a homosexual. condemned for doing nothing, so to speak.

gzt

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#2266272 28-Jun-2019 13:50

mm1352000: For what it's worth, no Christian I've ever met - even those who have a problem with homosexuality and/or fornication - has ever implied that they think any person has less rights than any other person. Quite the contrary in fact. The claim I've heard is that everybody sins in one way or another, and no sin is worse than any other (because all sin separates people from God).

Right to marry for example?

nitro

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#2266273 28-Jun-2019 13:51

mm1352000:

For what it's worth, no Christian I've ever met - even those who have a problem with homosexuality and/or fornication - has ever implied that they think any person has less rights than any other person. Quite the contrary in fact. The claim I've heard is that everybody sins in one way or another, and no sin is worse than any other (because all sin separates people from God).

i must be moving in the wrong circle/s.

i have met many so-called christians, of different denominations, that have told me that i won't be "saved" until i accept their doctrine and be one of them.

basically, that i have no right to salvation.

is that the same thing?

Rikkitic

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#2266278 28-Jun-2019 13:59

mm1352000:

Rikkitic:

But there is no right to use religious belief as an excuse to dictate how others should live or be treated.

To be clear, would you say Folau is/was doing this, or do you simply disagree with Folau's beliefs?

I don't really know what Folau's beliefs are, but I guess I probably disagree with some of them, such as his apparent belief in biblical hell. I don't disagree with the commandment not to kill people, though unfortunately christians have been some of the worst offenders of this through history.

His beliefs are not the issue, though. He is entitled to believe whatever he likes. The real problem here, which goes to the heart of discrimination, which is why Folau got himself into trouble and why this whole issue has us all talking about it, is something I highlighted several posts ago but has now got buried in all the noise.

Calling drunks or idolaters sinners is unlikely to get most people very worked up. The response will probably be a shrug at most. Who cares? It is up to them. No controversy there.

But when you add homosexuals to the mix, the consequences are very different. Gay people have long been a target of hatred and discrimination for something that they have absolutely no choice in. If you like, god made them the way they are. I don't for the life of me understand why religious people have such a problem getting this.

Gay bashers are always eager to find excuses for indulging their hobby. They must be very frustrated that so much tolerance has been spreading through society. Fortunately for them, there are still people like Folau who emerge from time to time to give them the justification they crave. Maybe he is merely issuing a loving warning. It doesn't matter. The haters are not going to rush out to beat up drunks and idolaters. Their target of choice is the gay community.

This is why there are laws against discrimination based on sexual orientation. It is the same as racial discrimination. As soon as a minority group is singled out as being in some way deserving of special punishment, the thugs start lining up to deliver it. By including homosexuals in his list of sinners bound for hell, Folau is saying that they deserve to be treated differently (worse) than all those not on the list. This is red flag to the bull stuff. Undeserving as he is, Folau is a role model to many people. I have never understood how being good at rolling around in the mud fighting over a ball makes you a role model, but that seems to be the way it is. As a prominent celebrity, what he says carries weight. He is an influencer. That brings special responsibility. It is highly irresponsible to tell people that gays are less worthy than other people, but that is what his sinner 'advice' does. In view of the history of the treatment of gay people, he deserves a lot more punishment than merely losing his right to roll in the mud. He should be jailed. And all those poor misinformed souls so freely throwing their money away because they have been scammed into believing they are somehow supporting free speech and especially, freedom of religion, should be hanging their heads in shame. They are not only misinformed. They are wilfully ignorant.

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mm1352000

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#2266279 28-Jun-2019 14:04

gzt:
mm1352000: For what it's worth, no Christian I've ever met - even those who have a problem with homosexuality and/or fornication - has ever implied that they think any person has less rights than any other person. Quite the contrary in fact. The claim I've heard is that everybody sins in one way or another, and no sin is worse than any other (because all sin separates people from God).

Right to marry for example?

Yeah, fair point. It would have been more accurate to say "...they think all people are inherently valuable, and no person is any more or less valuable than any other person."

Rikkitic

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#2266283 28-Jun-2019 14:11

mm1352000:

Yeah, fair point. It would have been more accurate to say "...they think all people are inherently valuable, and no person is any more or less valuable than any other person."

The problem is, it doesn't work that way in practice. For a long time most christians in the southern states of American thought black people were less valuable (hence discrimination) and some still do. A black man could be a preacher, holy as anything, and he still couldn't get a cup of coffee at a white church social. Lord knows what would have happened to a gay couple if any had dared show up.

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mm1352000

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#2266287 28-Jun-2019 14:24

Rikkitic:

mm1352000:

Yeah, fair point. It would have been more accurate to say "...they think all people are inherently valuable, and no person is any more or less valuable than any other person."

The problem is, it doesn't work that way in practice. For a long time most christians in the southern states of American thought black people were less valuable (hence discrimination) and some still do. A black man could be a preacher, holy as anything, and he still couldn't get a cup of coffee at a white church social. Lord knows what would have happened to a gay couple if any had dared show up.

Yes, I acknowledge that. To the best of my knowledge that attitude/behaviour couldn't be more inconsistent with Jesus' example as set out in the bible's new testament. Christians of history were not perfect; those of today are not; those of the future will not be either. They're all just people, and as I said earlier: from a Christian perspective everybody sins. For all we know, people in the future may look back on us and make similar judgements.

mm1352000

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#2266288 28-Jun-2019 14:29

Rikkitic:

But when you add homosexuals to the mix, the consequences are very different. Gay people have long been a target of hatred and discrimination for something that they have absolutely no choice in. If you like, god made them the way they are. I don't for the life of me understand why religious people have such a problem getting this.

Speculating: perhaps they don't believe that god made them that way.

Society at large hasn't always thought that being gay was not a choice.

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