Israel Folau saga.

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#2267355 30-Jun-2019 16:14

gzt: Looked at a different article. I could have been mistaken about verbal comments preceding the sacking:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7174761/Grandfather-sacked-Asda-sharing-anti-Islamic-Billy-Connolly-sketch-Facebook.html
Some articles describe him as a meet and greeter and some articles describe him as a till operator. According to many articles he did sincerely apologise almost immediately and publicly prior to the employer meeting. He's appealing the termination decision as excessive in the circumstances. UK law + wait and see.

his quote about sending it to the asian community is again a racist comment , you have to wonder if there is more behind this story

Common sense is not as common as you think.

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#2267388 30-Jun-2019 17:37

mm1352000:

In particular, many including yourself have said that people should be free to believe whatever they like, and/or that the goodness/caring/help-the-less-fortunate aspects of religion are good.

To specifically address your question: obviously it's no business of mine. I'm just saying that to me it looks like the instinct that motivates these people to do the good things that they do in society (eg. foodbanks, housing the homeless, counseling etc.) is the same instinct that causes them to speak out in the way that Folau has done. As Folau himself has said (whether you believe him or not): he is "warning" because he cares. Usually these messages are delivered with more tact/subtlety. In this case it seems not.

People are generally good. I applaud those who do these good things. To me, religion and belief in God means good things. (I am not religious) I think its unfair to compare these good people with extremist/fanatics like Folau. Folau is a bigot and a liar. So, don't associate him with good people, people who care.

He is an extremest and activist. He does not align wth general belief in God religion.He aligns with himself his money and his Church (that is not a Church but HIS church) Sort of like Destiny is Tamaki's own Church. He is also doing rather well financially.

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#2267391 30-Jun-2019 17:47

Batman:

Shadowfoot:

It's a requirement to teach these things. It's not a choice to live and let live.

From Wikipedia:

Recorded in the final verses of the Gospel of Matthew: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

A commandment to teach what things? I don't think the Gospel of Matthew has ever mentioned to tell homosexuals to repent or go to hell.

Edit: here's a very short summary ...

https://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/gospel-of-matthew.htm

Gospel of Matthew: What is the Significance?
The Gospel of Matthew presents many important facts and significant lessons. First, it clearly establishes that Jesus Christ is the Messiah that was prophesied throughout the Old Testament. Second, it proves that Jesus was the Son of God, whom He claimed to be through living a sinless and perfect life. Third, the Gospel records Jesus performing miracles over nature (calming the storm; Matthew 8:23-27), healing people (curing the servant; Matthew 8:5-13) and raising the dead (Jairus' daughter; Matthew 9:18-19). Fourth, Jesus personally gives over 200 real and practical lessons of how God desires people to live, respond through challenging circumstances, and make choices regarding their future for eternity. A few examples of these include: having faith (Matthew 9:29), dealing with fear (Matthew 8:26), God answering prayers (Matthew 8:2), the promise of salvation (Matthew 10:22), obeying God (Matthew 15:19), loving your neighbor (Matthew 19:19), sacrificing (Matthew 20:22), resolving legal issues (Matthew 5:25), how to give to others (Matthew 6:2), forgiving others that sin against you (Matthew 6:14), resisting temptation (Matthew 4:2), being a hypocrite (Matthew 23:28), acknowledging Christ (Matthew 10:32), and the image of Heaven and Hell (Matthew 13:49, 50). Every word spoken and written in this Gospel can be applied to life in a practical manner. Of course, a summary of this extremely important book of the Bible can only provide highlights, and is not a replacement for reading the actual text.

As a non Church going person, was that I read for that is being a good person. Loving thy neighbour, for example. What if my neighbour is gay? When I tell him he will go to hell, is that being a loving neighbour? When I go on rampages about people "like that" and I do photo ops with gay people showing my support, how does that go down?

Bad things are bad things, but most dont hide behind telling people that I stole from you, raped you, hurt or killed you, as I care for you.

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#2267392 30-Jun-2019 17:49

dafman:
Shadowfoot:

It's a requirement to teach these things. It's not a choice to live and let live.

From Wikipedia:

Recorded in the final verses of the Gospel of Matthew: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Unfortunately, that verse is the curse of christianity on the rest of us.
And I'm sick of hearing that Folau is spouting this nonsense out of love. There was a time when it was legally okay for parents to beat their children and I remember hearing some say they did so out of love. This kind of 'love' we can all do without.

Yep, the point I just made is that. He is hiding. He is weak.

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#2267395 30-Jun-2019 17:54

dafman:

With Israel Folau the church demands a kind of free speech that keeps gays in the firing line

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jun/27/with-israel-folau-the-church-demands-a-kind-of-free-speech-that-keeps-gays-in-the-firing-line?

A good read.

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#2267402 30-Jun-2019 18:04

gzt:
surfisup1000: I am more interested in the legal argument side of this, as opposed to his particular views.

Imo the legal problem for Folau is that his contract probably specifies he has marketing and brand responsibilities for Rugby Australia. In that the players are the public profile of Rugby Australia. The code of conduct in part is intended to keep players on the right side of that requirement.

Asics has already dropped him as a brand ambassador. Rugby Australia has the same problem.

Edit: this isn't going to be a problem for a normal person on the checkout at pak-an-save because zero brand or marketing responsibilities defined or expected for that.

Exactly right. He is their employee. He represents rugby, RA, the sponsors. He knows that. He was warned, but he decided to continue to abuse that. @Dafman post is a great article.

What it has come down to is 2019 and a distaste for discrimination. But the Church appears to encourage discrimination. Does that mean that the Church needs to be seen as illegal and immoral? I assume they have a charity designation. Should a Government remove that from them? If a group of people created a movement that relies on hate speech and discrimination, what happens to them? Going by this saga, they get support to continue the good work..... Thats what we seem to be doing at the moment. Its 2019 not 6000 years ago, when the Earth apparently started, or the stories that make up the Bible. If the Church cannot manage the Earth 2019 style many of us need to re think their role.

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#2267801 1-Jul-2019 15:02

Fitzsimmons says Folau signed a new AUD$4M contract between last year's effort and this year's post:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/113892311/israel-folau-has-bled-australian-rugby-of-millions-claims-former-wallaby-peter-fitzsimons

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#2267802 1-Jul-2019 15:07

gzt: Fitzsimmons says Folau signed a new AUD$4M contract between last year's effort and this year's post:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/113892311/israel-folau-has-bled-australian-rugby-of-millions-claims-former-wallaby-peter-fitzsimons

It's not Fitzsimmons claim, it is what happened.

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#2267803 1-Jul-2019 15:14

Last year's effort was a video which momentarily showed a gay rights type protest while the voiceover intoned the phrase “sexual perversions beyond description”. Calling someone a pervert because they happen to be gay.. words fail..

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#2267831 1-Jul-2019 15:59

According to the Collins dictionary, which is my authority on matters of lexicography, 'perversion' is defined thusly: A perversion of something is a form of it that is bad or wrong, or the changing of it into this form.

That seems to me like a pretty good definition of what is going on here. Folau's stance is a perversion of normal values of decency. The churches that support him are a perversion of christianity, that preaches tolerance, respect, love and forgiveness. Gay sex? That is just another variation of human behaviour. Hard to see any perversion there, except in those looking for wrongness where there isn't any.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2271924 8-Jul-2019 16:14

And how will this play out?

https://www.eternitynews.com.au/world/englands-version-of-israel-folau-wins-his-case/

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#2272051 8-Jul-2019 20:22

decibel:

And how will this play out?

https://www.eternitynews.com.au/world/englands-version-of-israel-folau-wins-his-case/

Its a very important case, no doubt. It will be argued as the precedent to give Folau 10 million. It will also be argued as not similar enough to be a precedent case.

In my view

He quoted biblical passages. So did Folau, and others, Folau was not sacked due to those quoted passages, he was sacked for his personal attack.

The University appears to have acted harshly. RA didn't act harshly

The person here was seen as lacking insight into his actions when involved in the heated debate that he posted biblical passages. Folau know exactly what he was doing and what trouble it will cause, and he had already been warned.

My opinion is that it does not work in Folau's case

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#2272057 8-Jul-2019 20:30

tdgeek:
He quoted biblical passages. So did Folau, and others, Folau was not sacked due to those quoted passages, he was sacked for his personal attack.

This is the most often repeated falsehood. Folau did not quote the bible. He paraphrased it and used the word "hell" which is not in the actual verse. He was given the opportunity to remove his paraphrased inclusion of the word "hell" and put the actual Bible quote in but declined to do so.

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#2272061 8-Jul-2019 20:49

dafman:
tdgeek:

He quoted biblical passages. So did Folau, and others, Folau was not sacked due to those quoted passages, he was sacked for his personal attack.

This is the most often repeated falsehood. Folau did not quote the bible. He paraphrased it and used the word "hell" which is not in the actual verse. He was given the opportunity to remove his paraphrased inclusion of the word "hell" and put the actual Bible quote in but declined to do so.

I agree with you, but on some posts there were direct quotes. The quotes IIRC were generic and mild. And I also recall some were "modernised" so were not direct Bible quotes, and were thus enhanced.

Yes, theses words were HIS words, which is what I meant by "his personal attack"

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#2272063 8-Jul-2019 20:57

so we are playing moot court now i see.

the argument is not about quoting from the bible if i'm not mistaken, it's being sacked for his religion. which is not necessarily the practice of quoting from the bible verbatim. i have no idea what australian law says about freedom to practice religion but that is my understanding.

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