Israel Folau saga.

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#2312409 7-Sep-2019 17:09

Handle9:
PhantomNVD:
Handle9:

This is where I get lost. Is being heterosexual a "choice"? For me it is not, it is who I am and I couldn't change it if I wanted to.

Well technically breathing is a choice I keep making too, but no, heterosexual is a birth state as the species requires reproduction to continue. Homosexual intercourse, getting an ear/nose/etc pierced, getting circumcised or even just filling or pulling out a rotten tooth are all ‘choices’ that change us after we are born, all of which have consequences... some positive and others negative.

In my opinion, and it has been pretty comprehensibly demonstrated, that is BS. At that point religion becomes willful ignorance at best.

So you’re saying heterosexual _is_ a ‘choice’?
That’s now a ‘straw man’ argument as we started this discussion based on your desire to discuss a “complex” position you didn’t understand, and I have responded with exactly what Christian’s believe, which is what you sought clarity on.

I’m not arguing, just presenting the Christian belief system... if I wanted to argue I’d have responded to the atheist who says God doesn’t even exist :D

Like him, you can believe whatever you want to, and I can too ;)

In the end, your being ‘right’ wouldn’t make me any better or worse off, but what if (just MAYBE) there is a loving God who died for our sins... would that change your life?

Ka pai.

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#2312414 7-Sep-2019 17:31

PhantomNVD:
Handle9:

PhantomNVD:
Handle9:

This is where I get lost. Is being heterosexual a "choice"? For me it is not, it is who I am and I couldn't change it if I wanted to.

Well technically breathing is a choice I keep making too, but no, heterosexual is a birth state as the species requires reproduction to continue. Homosexual intercourse, getting an ear/nose/etc pierced, getting circumcised or even just filling or pulling out a rotten tooth are all ‘choices’ that change us after we are born, all of which have consequences... some positive and others negative.

In my opinion, and it has been pretty comprehensibly demonstrated, that is BS. At that point religion becomes willful ignorance at best.

So you’re saying heterosexual _is_ a ‘choice’?
That’s now a ‘straw man’ argument as we started this discussion based on your desire to discuss a “complex” position you didn’t understand, and I have responded with exactly what Christian’s believe, which is what you sought clarity on.

I’m not arguing, just presenting the Christian belief system... if I wanted to argue I’d have responded to the atheist who says God doesn’t even exist :D

Like him, you can believe whatever you want to, and I can too ;)

In the end, your being ‘right’ wouldn’t make me any better or worse off, but what if (just MAYBE) there is a loving God who died for our sins... would that change your life?

Ka pai.

No and I didn't write it that well - I can not choose to be sexually attracted to men, just as I did not choose to be sexually attracted to women, it is not a matter of morality or will power, it is something that is in me. That makes logical sense to me, fits with my observation, the facts observed in nature, the experience I have read of most homosexuals and seems quite simple.

The statement was made that the religious reasoning is complex, therefore not explained. The religious reasoning behind it still doesn't fit with empirical evidence.

A loving god may or may not change my life but hateful religious people have definitely hurt a lot of people for no good reason.

tdgeek

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#2312426 7-Sep-2019 17:55

PhantomNVD: Bi curious?

Sorry, couldn’t help that one...

From a Christian perspective, Homosexuality is sinful and Christians don’t believe God created someone with an intrinsic desire for sin (original sin is another whole topic!)

Thus is God created Man and Women in His own image, perfect and pleasing to Him, then homosexuals are people who (through ‘nurture’/experience/choice, not ‘nature’/birth) become homosexuals and have the same choice as any other sinner to repent of their sin.

Christian perspective is that homosexual are made that way by their earthly influences, experiences or choices, not by God in their birth state.

If God created everything, he/she created gays

dafman

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#2312428 7-Sep-2019 17:57

PhantomNVD:
Handle9:

This is where I get lost. Is being heterosexual a "choice"? For me it is not, it is who I am and I couldn't change it if I wanted to.

Well technically breathing is a choice I keep making too, but no, heterosexual is a birth state as the species requires reproduction to continue. Homosexual intercourse, getting an ear/nose/etc pierced, getting circumcised or even just filling or pulling out a rotten tooth are all ‘choices’ that change us after we are born, all of which have consequences... some positive and others negative.

Heterosexual is a birth state for the majority, but not for all. And not just human species - homosexuality is an observed natural variation across many animals.

And by the way, getting circumcised is not a choice. Circumcision is genital mutilation enforced on young children by the religious because of stone-age ignorant beliefs. The sooner it is legally banned, the better.

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#2312429 7-Sep-2019 17:57

Batman:

PhantomNVD: Bi curious?

Sorry, couldn’t help that one...

From a Christian perspective, Homosexuality is sinful and Christians don’t believe God created someone with an intrinsic desire for sin (original sin is another whole topic!)

Thus is God created Man and Women in His own image, perfect and pleasing to Him, then homosexuals are people who (through ‘nurture’/experience/choice, not ‘nature’/birth) become homosexuals and have the same choice as any other sinner to repent of their sin.

Christian perspective is that homosexual are made that way by their earthly influences, experiences or choices, not by God in their birth state.

I only have one issue with the topic of sin. Everybody commits sins. Failing to take in the homeless into your own home is as sinful as downloading an mp3 is as sinful as getting angry is as sinful as getting excited at someone of the opposite sex is as sinful as separating from a spouse is as sinful as coitus with someone of the same sex.

Unfortunately it doesn't look good - being judgemental of only sins that one does not commit is a bit holier than thou type of thing.

Now I am actually pretty neutral about all these things because when people want free speech and want tolerance. Doesn't it go both ways. You have to accept Folau's freedom of speech and you actually have to tolerate him IMO. But I am getting the vibe that somehow that is not the case? He is not inciting violence against anyone. Yes there are all the mental health arguments and I buy that. And he has been sacked already for that, I see that he's been dealt with, end of story.

He wants to sue, well some lady sued a barber because he said he couldn't cut lady's daughter's hair. Let him have his day in court as he is allowed as an Australian.

I agree, many things are sinful. They can pray, as can Folau, who is also sinful.

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#2312438 7-Sep-2019 18:41

PhantomNVD:I don’t dislike homosexuals! I don’t dislike the poor, the atheists, the drunks or the ‘fornicators and adulterers’ either!

These are all people who are doing things I disagree with, but that doesn’t make them people I don’t like!

So you dont dislike the poor but the poor are doing things you dont agree with, i.e. being poor? Im not poor, I am well off, but I have an affinity with the poor. Its not always their fault.

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#2312495 7-Sep-2019 20:07

Being poor is not a choice. It's inherited. It's a generational cycle.

Rikkitic

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#2312507 7-Sep-2019 20:46

According the the latest scientific research, there is a genetic basis to homosexuality. While a single 'gay gene' has not been found, genetic regions linked to homosexuality do seem to exist.

In other words, god made homosexuals gay, and then didn't give them a choice in the matter. What is wrong with that picture?

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PhantomNVD

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#2312515 7-Sep-2019 20:58

tdgeek:
PhantomNVD:I don’t dislike homosexuals! I don’t dislike the poor, the atheists, the drunks or the ‘fornicators and adulterers’ either!

These are all people who are doing things I disagree with, but that doesn’t make them people I don’t like!

So you dont dislike the poor but the poor are doing things you dont agree with, i.e. being poor? Im not poor, I am well off, but I have an affinity with the poor. Its not always their fault.

I guess you missed my response to this earlier?

PhantomNVD:
dafman:
Yeah, heard it all before, love the sinner, hate the sin, blah blah blah. Although I would love to hear what the poor are doing that you disagree with??!

At a recent Australian Christian Lobby conference (the same folks that organised Folau's recent money grab) homosexuality was linked to either absent parents and/or exposure to pedophiles. Gay people are not born that way and anyone that thinks so is an idiot (the ACL presenter's words, not mine).

Stone-age ignorant gibberish. So, yep, agree, some people are harder to like than others.

The only thing wrong with the poor is the being poor? Something I try to work against (poverty) rather than a sinful state of being.
However, when last did you stop to actually chat to the beggar outside the New World/McDonalds etc?
Most people ‘dislike’ the REALLY poor as we inherently realise that they are only a few pay checks (divorce/family death etc.) from being their too. I try to see them as people and help them as best I can, firstly by listening to what they think they need too.

PhantomNVD

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#2312520 7-Sep-2019 21:03

Rikkitic:
According the the latest scientific research, there is a genetic basis to homosexuality. While a single 'gay gene' has not been found, genetic regions linked to homosexuality do seem to exist.

In other words, god made homosexuals gay, and then didn't give them a choice in the matter. What is wrong with that picture?

From your article:

However, Sanders does not claim to have identified a single gene which ‘causes’ male homosexuality in humans and stresses that with complex human traits like sexual orientation there are many influencing factors, both genetic and environmental.

But for it to be a genetic root it also must be inheritable... explain to me exactly how two same sex individuals pass on their ‘inherent’ gene to the next generation?

To be genetically inherited it must by definition be a mutation which is (obviously) not beneficial to the propagation of the species as a whole...

Rikkitic

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#2312540 7-Sep-2019 21:16

There are genetic conditions that kill the victims and prevent them from reproducing. Yet the same genetic conditions keep occurring. How can this be?

I can't speak for your grasp of religion, but your grasp of science is flawed. Genes are constantly being mixed and mutated. You don't need gay parents to produce gay offspring.

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#2312556 7-Sep-2019 21:59

I will put this here: I know someone who was very anti-gay, until he found his son was gay.

Being gay is not a sin. Being gay is not a choice.

I see no evidence of a $deity's existence.

I see evidence of science, following a set of rules that we are still discovering - despite the huge advancements in the last couple of hundred years.

I don't go around trying to close all churches. I would hope religious people wouldn't go around trying to stop people being people. If someone believe they need to behave in a certain way to reach heaven, so be it. But people shouldn't try to "fix" other people. No one owns anyone else.

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jonathan18

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#2312682 8-Sep-2019 09:59

On the same topic of Christianity and homosexuality is this story from earlier in the week:

Conversion therapy center founder who sought to turn LGBTQ Christians straight says he’s gay, rejects ‘cycle of self shame’

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/09/03/conversion-therapy-center-founder-who-sought-turn-lgbtq-christians-straight-now-says-hes-gay-rejects-cycle-shame/

frankv

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#2312749 8-Sep-2019 10:58

PhantomNVD:

But if you believe Christ died for you, to forgive your sins, and that you need Him in your life to be saved from the consequences of your sin (separation from God, AKA Hell) then you must first accept that your sin is wrong to be able to need His forgiveness?

This is IMHO the heart of the problem with Christianity (and Islam, and I guess some other religions)... that you *can* be saved from the consequences of your sin. Some people take this as a license to commit sins against their fellow man, secure in the belief that *they* are "saved" by applying some rite or other. And some go further to and feel a *duty* to do bad things, particularly when incited by religious leaders who typically have much more earthly goals.

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#2312763 8-Sep-2019 11:22

frankv:
PhantomNVD:

But if you believe Christ died for you, to forgive your sins, and that you need Him in your life to be saved from the consequences of your sin (separation from God, AKA Hell) then you must first accept that your sin is wrong to be able to need His forgiveness?

This is IMHO the heart of the problem with Christianity (and Islam, and I guess some other religions)... that you *can* be saved from the consequences of your sin. Some people take this as a license to commit sins against their fellow man, secure in the belief that *they* are "saved" by applying some rite or other. And some go further to and feel a *duty* to do bad things, particularly when incited by religious leaders who typically have much more earthly goals.

Somehow I don't think religion makes bad people do bad things. That's one way for bad people to do bad things but they don't need it as a vehicle, there are plenty of other means and reasons for them to persuade their followers. Eg non religious books and ideologies are just as powerful if not more powerful esp in the age of the Internet. Chicken eggs are enough to get animal rights activists to vandalise property. Absence of religion won't change anything I don't think - cue Russia and North Korea.

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