Geekzone Rugby (Union) Discussion Thread

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Networkn
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#2943300 18-Jul-2022 09:29

The vitriol toward Foster and Cane is unhinged. I honestly feel pretty disgusted with how NZ fans on the whole are dealing with losses against good quality, well coached teams, as if we are simply unable to comprehend that we may not, right now, be the best team in the world.

We were beaten by a better team who outplayed us. We need to make some changes, possibly including a change in coach or captain, but people need to understand where the coaches role ends and the players responsibility starts. We had all the motivation we should have needed to

play well and strongly, and didn't for large parts of the game. The team seems out of sync. Our tactics aren't really working, but our skill execution is also having a problem. Those who think swapping coaches is magically going to fix all ails are dreaming in my view. I honestly feel a few weeks extra together, hopefully without covid disruptions, may help. We are capable of being an excellent team, but we don't seem to be gelling too well right now.

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#2943303 18-Jul-2022 09:39

trig42:

I can see SA smashing us to pieces.

We were not physical/strong enough for Ireland in the forwards. We had no idea of how to get through their impressive defence. We kept up with the box kick to nowhere.

Out thought, out passioned, out played.

unless SA are also in some doldrums ....

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#2943305 18-Jul-2022 09:43

Kopkiwi:

You're bang on, anyone that thinks there is clear justification between those two incidents that warranted completely different sanctions, probably should give up watching the sport because their is deep in the sand.

Wayne Barnes exhibited common sense. Jaco Peyper did not. Barnes will now be in hot water with the IRB.

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#2943307 18-Jul-2022 09:52

johno1234:

Kopkiwi:

You're bang on, anyone that thinks there is clear justification between those two incidents that warranted completely different sanctions, probably should give up watching the sport because their is deep in the sand.

Wayne Barnes exhibited common sense. Jaco Peyper did not. Barnes will now be in hot water with the IRB.

the rules are open to the referee's interpretation

i don't think he is in hot water

there is no black and white line that i can see

a black and white line would be - if you have head contact, if the player carrying the ball if his head moves backwards as a result of head contact you will issue a red card

that would be black and white

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#2943312 18-Jul-2022 10:04

Batman:

a black and white line would be - if you have head contact, if the player carrying the ball if his head moves backwards as a result of head contact you will issue a red card

that would be black and white

That's not black and white; reeling away from head contact, even if you created it, isn't unusual.

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#2943316 18-Jul-2022 10:10

networkn:

The vitriol toward Foster and Cane is unhinged. I honestly feel pretty disgusted with how NZ fans on the whole are dealing with losses against good quality, well coached teams, as if we are simply unable to comprehend that we may not, right now, be the best team in the world.

We were beaten by a better team who outplayed us. We need to make some changes, possibly including a change in coach or captain, but people need to understand where the coaches role ends and the players responsibility starts. We had all the motivation we should have needed to

play well and strongly, and didn't for large parts of the game. The team seems out of sync. Our tactics aren't really working, but our skill execution is also having a problem. Those who think swapping coaches is magically going to fix all ails are dreaming in my view. I honestly feel a few weeks extra together, hopefully without covid disruptions, may help. We are capable of being an excellent team, but we don't seem to be gelling too well right now.

It's not really about the loses to the other top teams, they have played really well... it's clearly about how badly the ABs have performed in too many test matches under this current coaching staff.

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#2943318 18-Jul-2022 10:27

GV27:

artbloke:

Really concerned about how consistently poor we're at the breakdown.

A few years ago teams started experimenting with only committing two or three players to a clearout and then quick ball solving the problem of the halfback being exposed.

But that doesn't work when the ruck slows down or the forwards blow past the ruck itself. I swear a bunch of our turnovers were given away because we had two players in a ruck when we needed four, and it's not like having the extra runners got us many metres either. Almost all of our line breaks came from the midfield, not around the fringe.

We gave away a lot of ball for what should have obviously been very little reward, and was never going to be. Much the same as the high, short box kick. You get the ball back maybe two times out of ten, but the eight other times you've just given it to the other team and they're only ten metres back from where they were on defense. So... maybe not do that?

On our own ball we should always have good numbers to clean, it's the only way to consistently recycle as quick as possible, which stops them from slowing our ball down, getting turn overs, also us getting pinged through lack of numbers.

Box kick is very low percentage stuff, but is a pretty handy for a halfback to use when inside his 22 to kick out to exit well... we also continue to kick long aimlessly gifting the ball to the opposition, we should be kicking to space with diagonal kicks to the sideline & corners etc.

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#2943321 18-Jul-2022 10:38

artbloke:

On our own ball we should always have good numbers to clean, it's the only way to consistently recycle as quick as possible, which stops them from slowing our ball down, getting turn overs, also us getting pinged through lack of numbers.

Box kick is very low percentage stuff, but is a pretty handy for a halfback to use when inside his 22 to kick out to exit well... we also continue to kick long aimlessly gifting the ball to the opposition, we should be kicking to space with diagonal kicks to the sideline & corners etc.

Every person in a ruck/breakdown isn't available on attack/defense. It's a balance. Some teams it will be more effective than others against. Ireland we got turned over a bit, or at least isolated. We got pinged a few times for cleanouts past the ruck. That was dumb stuff, esp to get pinged repeatedly for.

What was frustrating was losing our own lineouts.

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#2943380 18-Jul-2022 11:28

SA v Wales was a good match to watch. The state of the pitch was a disgrace though.

Scotland v Argentina was a classic. It was fantastic. Went down to the wire.

As Handle9 said, Australia did enough to win against England. Defense was the difference I think. Australia seem to have improved a fair bit from last test season.

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#2943382 18-Jul-2022 11:42

networkn:

artbloke:

On our own ball we should always have good numbers to clean, it's the only way to consistently recycle as quick as possible, which stops them from slowing our ball down, getting turn overs, also us getting pinged through lack of numbers.

Box kick is very low percentage stuff, but is a pretty handy for a halfback to use when inside his 22 to kick out to exit well... we also continue to kick long aimlessly gifting the ball to the opposition, we should be kicking to space with diagonal kicks to the sideline & corners etc.

Every person in a ruck/breakdown isn't available on attack/defense. It's a balance. Some teams it will be more effective than others against. Ireland we got turned over a bit, or at least isolated. We got pinged a few times for cleanouts past the ruck. That was dumb stuff, esp to get pinged repeatedly for.

What was frustrating was losing our own lineouts.

It's absolutely vital though that we get enough players to our ball carriers to clean well physically {but clean with common sense so we don't get pinged} to protect our possession, that should happen on most occasions, obviously it's more difficult to get good numbers at times to the ball carrier when the ball is spread wide quickly, then a player might get isolated.

Was frustrating us losing too many of our lineouts, but that's not the ongoing issue, the breakdown area is.

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#2943436 18-Jul-2022 13:45

I really highly recommend watching this weeks breakdown, available free on YT. I think there is some great insight in that panel. I think they make some great points about it only being 3 tests since the last review, 1 of which we won, one of which was lost under unusual circumstances, and one we lost outright.

What will be discussed, and who will undertake this review? It feels like Mark Robinson has thrown Foster under the bus.

I totally get it's really bad to have lost the series, I am gutted as a fan, but is 3 tests (one of which we won) a reasonable amount of time given the disruptions that have occurred to be a reasonable indication of where the team is compared to the end of last year when we lost to the two best teams in the world right now? In some ways the review of the last 2 losses, it will create some patterns around what is going wrong, that a single loss might not.

Something isn't quite right in the camp. Can they identify and resolve it? If it really is the coaches, then perhaps some of them go, or all of them, if it's the players, why ?

These guys care they lost, including Foster, it's pretty obvious. Perhaps this is where the AB's are at right now against the likes of Ireland and France.

I had really hoped that at the fresh end of the International season, with recent match time up their sleeves, we could have started the year better, I expected to do so.

Possession seems to be the key area the panel was concerned about.

There exists a scenario where through this adversity, we come out stronger and better connected and all the people involved learn some things about themselves and about winning/losing. Most people seem to think Foster isn't the person to lead that, and perhaps they are right, but I think in the past we have persisted past adversity and it's created a strong team moving forward.

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#2943437 18-Jul-2022 13:57

Fosters results vs Tier one nations (Top 10 in the world)

Played 18 Games

Won 11 Games

Lost 6 Games

Drew 1 Game

The NZR definitely not accepting of a 61% win ratio and looking so ineffectual whilst doing so

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#2943442 18-Jul-2022 14:09

JPNZ:

Fosters results vs Tier one nations (Top 10 in the world)

Played 18 Games

Won 11 Games

Lost 6 Games

Drew 1 Game

The NZR definitely not accepting of a 61% win ratio and looking so ineffectual whilst doing so

It's not flash, is anyone suggesting otherwise? Still, they reviewed in December and have played 3 tests since then, 1 which they won, one which they lost and another under unusual circumstances.

Changes take time to implement. Pretty hard to do that under massive pressure and disruption against the number 1 team in the world. Seems unlikely Foster will resign unless the AB's internal review gives him reason to believe he is the majority reason for the losses.

If he isn't, if it's the players, or the assistant coaches, then he needs to step up and make the required changes, whatever they are. If he can do that, he's the right guy to keep going. If he can't, he should step aside.

From what I understand, the review in December suggest the assistants were the majority of the issue inside the coaches box, he backed his team to change and improve. If they can't, he needs to let them go.

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#2943447 18-Jul-2022 14:27

So, excluding coaches, who gets cut, and who gets called in, for the squad on Wednesday?

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#2943448 18-Jul-2022 14:29

artbloke:

Every person in a ruck/breakdown isn't available on attack/defense. It's a balance. Some teams it will be more effective than others against. Ireland we got turned over a bit, or at least isolated. We got pinged a few times for cleanouts past the ruck. That was dumb stuff, esp to get pinged repeatedly for.

What was frustrating was losing our own lineouts.

You are right (though 4 lost lineouts in the first half is really bad too), so how do we fix our breakdown?

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