Israel Folau saga.

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#2263647 24-Jun-2019 21:46

Kiwifruta:
Rikkitic:

There is a reason that certain groups, like gays and Muslims, have special anti-discrimination protections that drunks and idolaters do not. We saw recently in Christchurch what can happen to those who worship a different god. In Britain two lesbian ladies were bashed up the other day by some thugs who probably would applaud Folau's stance. Not so very long ago gay men were being attacked and rolled off cliffs to their death in Sydney by people who thought they had some special moral right to commit murder because their victims were somehow 'degenerate'. Some have been castrated in America by good old boys who also thought they were undeserving of basic human rights.

When public figures like Folau spout off about gays going to hell, they legitimise those who are looking for excuses to abuse people they don't approve of. His free speech rights end where others seize on his irresponsible blather to justify doing harm to people they don't like. He can believe whatever he wants to. But he can't preach hate. Doing so has consequences and those supersede any so-called religious freedom. He is a bigoted jerk and needs to get over himself.

He is not a bigoted jerk. He has shared his own weaknesses (womanising) that he needed to repent of. His message was a message of warning and hope. By repenting and through the atonement of Jesus Christ there is hope for a heavenly reward. Where is the hate in that?

What do gay people have to repent?

mm1352000

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#2263654 24-Jun-2019 22:06

Handle9:

mm1352000:

I agree on all of your points...

Have I understood you correctly?

IANAL but all the reading that I have done suggests that in Australia freedom of religion is limited to government interference with religious observance and discrimination based on religion.

Yeah, assuming you're right, the government is obviously not interfering, and if you accept the premises of your contract-based "argument" then discrimination is not in play either. That being the case, from the perspective of the law, perhaps the case is cut and dried.

Looking at the wider societal response is interesting though. I've repeatedly encountered expressions in the media and more generally that essentially insist that Folau is preaching hate, and that therefore he should not be allowed to express his religious views on that basis alone. If that were the populist opinion, and if Folau is expressing content directly from the bible as seems to be the case, what are the future implications for expression of religion.

Handle9

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#2263656 24-Jun-2019 22:19

mm1352000:

Handle9:

mm1352000:

I agree on all of your points...

Have I understood you correctly?

IANAL but all the reading that I have done suggests that in Australia freedom of religion is limited to government interference with religious observance and discrimination based on religion.

Yeah, assuming you're right, the government is obviously not interfering, and if you accept the premises of your contract-based "argument" then discrimination is not in play either. That being the case, from the perspective of the law, perhaps the case is cut and dried.

Looking at the wider societal response is interesting though. I've repeatedly encountered expressions in the media and more generally that essentially insist that Folau is preaching hate, and that therefore he should not be allowed to express his religious views on that basis alone. If that were the populist opinion, and if Folau is expressing content directly from the bible as seems to be the case, what are the future implications for expression of religion.

IMO the implication is that you are responsible for your own statements. "The bible said it was ok" isn't a reasonable explanation.

Once again no one is stopping you saying stupid things or being a bigot. You're totally free to do so. Others, including employers, are free to say that your words and actions are repugnant and they don't want to be associated with them.

They aren't free to say they don't want to employ you because you are Christian/Muslim/Jew/Jedi, only if your behaviour is unacceptable.

chevrolux

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#2263659 24-Jun-2019 22:35

Kiwifruta:
Rikkitic:
There is a reason that certain groups, like gays and Muslims, have special anti-discrimination protections that drunks and idolaters do not. We saw recently in Christchurch what can happen to those who worship a different god. In Britain two lesbian ladies were bashed up the other day by some thugs who probably would applaud Folau's stance. Not so very long ago gay men were being attacked and rolled off cliffs to their death in Sydney by people who thought they had some special moral right to commit murder because their victims were somehow 'degenerate'. Some have been castrated in America by good old boys who also thought they were undeserving of basic human rights.

When public figures like Folau spout off about gays going to hell, they legitimise those who are looking for excuses to abuse people they don't approve of. His free speech rights end where others seize on his irresponsible blather to justify doing harm to people they don't like. He can believe whatever he wants to. But he can't preach hate. Doing so has consequences and those supersede any so-called religious freedom. He is a bigoted jerk and needs to get over himself.

He is not a bigoted jerk. He has shared his own weaknesses (womanising) that he needed to repent of. His message was a message of warning and hope. By repenting and through the atonement of Jesus Christ there is hope for a heavenly reward. Where is the hate in that?

He is THE WORST kind of human being. As Rikki says, promoting these kind of ideas is what powers other oxygen thieves, like that in Christchurch, to make their ideas a reality for those they dont agree.

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#2263665 24-Jun-2019 23:20

tyronne:

"Six days work shall be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death."

-Exodus 35:2

Since we are taking everything literally, I've got some bad news for Israel....

Nah I think he's worried about this

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ESV / 159 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

“If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

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#2263671 24-Jun-2019 23:26

chevrolux:
Kiwifruta:
Rikkitic:

There is a reason that certain groups, like gays and Muslims, have special anti-discrimination protections that drunks and idolaters do not. We saw recently in Christchurch what can happen to those who worship a different god. In Britain two lesbian ladies were bashed up the other day by some thugs who probably would applaud Folau's stance. Not so very long ago gay men were being attacked and rolled off cliffs to their death in Sydney by people who thought they had some special moral right to commit murder because their victims were somehow 'degenerate'. Some have been castrated in America by good old boys who also thought they were undeserving of basic human rights.

When public figures like Folau spout off about gays going to hell, they legitimise those who are looking for excuses to abuse people they don't approve of. His free speech rights end where others seize on his irresponsible blather to justify doing harm to people they don't like. He can believe whatever he wants to. But he can't preach hate. Doing so has consequences and those supersede any so-called religious freedom. He is a bigoted jerk and needs to get over himself.

He is not a bigoted jerk. He has shared his own weaknesses (womanising) that he needed to repent of. His message was a message of warning and hope. By repenting and through the atonement of Jesus Christ there is hope for a heavenly reward. Where is the hate in that?

He is THE WORST kind of human being. As Rikki says, promoting these kind of ideas is what powers other oxygen thieves, like that in Christchurch, to make their ideas a reality for those they dont agree.

As a neutral observer, I have to say that in my observation it's only hate speech if it's something quoted from the bible.

When I see people quote extreme views from other religious books nobody calls it hate speech.

When I see people say things like climate change deniers, that is not hate speech.

When Richard Dawkins and his followers mocks people it's not hate speech.

When vegans accuse meat eaters it's not hate speech.

What gives?

Handle9

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#2263685 25-Jun-2019 00:44

Batman:

As a neutral observer, I have to say that in my observation it's only hate speech if it's something quoted from the bible.

When I see people quote extreme views from other religious books nobody calls it hate speech.

When I see people say things like climate change deniers, that is not hate speech.

When Richard Dawkins and his followers mocks people it's not hate speech.

When vegans accuse meat eaters it's not hate speech.

What gives?

Do you have examples where speech based on a protected attribute (i.e. the definition of hate speech) isn't condemned by one group or another? It might not be called hate speech but are they being called out for their words and behaviour.

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#2263708 25-Jun-2019 07:15

Israel Folau crowd-sourcing to relaunch with $100,000 from Australian Christian Lobby

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/113743883/israel-folau-crowdsourcing-to-relaunch-with-100000-from-australian-christian-lobby

Blue Sky: shadowfoot.bsky.social

tdgeek

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#2263710 25-Jun-2019 07:24

mm1352000:

Handle9:

mm1352000:

I agree on all of your points...

Have I understood you correctly?

IANAL but all the reading that I have done suggests that in Australia freedom of religion is limited to government interference with religious observance and discrimination based on religion.

Yeah, assuming you're right, the government is obviously not interfering, and if you accept the premises of your contract-based "argument" then discrimination is not in play either. That being the case, from the perspective of the law, perhaps the case is cut and dried.

Looking at the wider societal response is interesting though. I've repeatedly encountered expressions in the media and more generally that essentially insist that Folau is preaching hate, and that therefore he should not be allowed to express his religious views on that basis alone. If that were the populist opinion, and if Folau is expressing content directly from the bible as seems to be the case, what are the future implications for expression of religion.

You are missing the point. There is no Govt interference. Why would there be? No one in interfering with his religious observance. he has posted religious observance on social media before, no issue. Others in rugby have also, no issue. He ranted just the other day, no one has an issue. Freedom of speech and religion.

When he had a job and when that employer found themselves with an employee, who had gone past religious belief (all ok), gone past posting Bible excerpts (all ok) then went on an anti gay rant of his own words that breached the code of conduct with his employer, that's when they fired him

tdgeek

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#2263711 25-Jun-2019 07:36

Batman:

As a neutral observer, I have to say that in my observation it's only hate speech if it's something quoted from the bible.

When I see people quote extreme views from other religious books nobody calls it hate speech.

When I see people say things like climate change deniers, that is not hate speech.

When Richard Dawkins and his followers mocks people it's not hate speech.

When vegans accuse meat eaters it's not hate speech.

What gives?

Your mistaken observation is what gives

Forget the Bible, its not relevant. Its an old book, where the collections of stories are either true or not. But its just an historical publication that in some cases supports discrimination. Quote it, doesn't matter. Hate speech isn't cool. Hating gays isn't cool. An employer is within their right to fire someone who publically represents the employer with bigoted views

How you can compare vegan vs meat with anti gay hate speech is beyond me

Benjip

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#2263721 25-Jun-2019 07:56

Batman:

As a neutral observer, I have to say that in my observation it's only hate speech if it's something quoted from the bible.

When I see people quote extreme views from other religious books nobody calls it hate speech.

When I see people say things like climate change deniers, that is not hate speech.

When Richard Dawkins and his followers mocks people it's not hate speech.

When vegans accuse meat eaters it's not hate speech.

What gives?

Here's a list of things/actions that people choose, and can change instantly at any time:

Denying climate change
Denying evolution (if that's what your "Richard Dawkins" was getting at)
Being vegan
Religious beliefs

And here's a list of things/actions that people do not choose, and cannot change:

Race
Sexuality
Height
Physical disabilities

If you don't see why one of those lists has attributes that are protected from hate speech and the other does not, I'm not sure how it could be made any more simple or obvious.

ShinyChrome

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#2263724 25-Jun-2019 08:16

tdgeek:
Batman:

As a neutral observer, I have to say that in my observation it's only hate speech if it's something quoted from the bible.

When I see people quote extreme views from other religious books nobody calls it hate speech.

When I see people say things like climate change deniers, that is not hate speech.

When Richard Dawkins and his followers mocks people it's not hate speech.

When vegans accuse meat eaters it's not hate speech.

What gives?

Your mistaken observation is what gives

Forget the Bible, its not relevant. Its an old book, where the collections of stories are either true or not. But its just an historical publication that in some cases supports discrimination. Quote it, doesn't matter. Hate speech isn't cool. Hating gays isn't cool. An employer is within their right to fire someone who publically represents the employer with bigoted views

How you can compare vegan vs meat with anti gay hate speech is beyond me

This right here.

And I feel like context is important here. No one has been stoning to death or shooting up night clubs of meat eaters for centuries for their right to eat meat.

dafman

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#2263734 25-Jun-2019 08:47

surfisup1000:
You should really get your facts right. You clearly didn't even read the tweet!!

Firstly, he makes no assertion that he represents the views of Rugby Australia.

And, the tweet in question directly quotes the bible, Galatians 5:19‭-‬21

You should really get your facts right.
Firstly, his social media account at the time he made the tweet had as its main banner a photo of him in a Rugby Australia shirt.
Secondly, his tweet did not directly quote the bible. I am so sick of hearing this false statement. The bible does not state anywhere that hell awaits homosexuals, so how can you say his tweet directly quotes the bible?!

tdgeek

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#2263736 25-Jun-2019 08:53

Further clarification of Folau's possible wealth

After earning what many believe stretches into the tens of millions of dollars over a 12-year professional career spanning all three of Australia's winter football codes

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/113743883/israel-folau-crowdsourcing-to-relaunch-with-100000-from-australian-christian-lobby

This is the web article where the supporters of gay bashing are helping him out

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#2263769 25-Jun-2019 09:38

Kiwifruta: He is not a bigoted jerk. He has shared his own weaknesses (womanising) that he needed to repent of. His message was a message of warning and hope. By repenting and through the atonement of Jesus Christ there is hope for a heavenly reward. Where is the hate in that?

The one I saw looked pretty much like he'd added 'and homosexuals' to a bible quote, and he didn't mention Jesus at all.

People who feel they have failed their religion always like to find someone they think is worse and unfairly point to scapegoat them instead.

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