Another (2nd) 737 Max 8 crash

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#2247667 29-May-2019 12:05

When Will The 737 MAX Fly Again?

Short answer: "who knows?"

Dj's Aviation

The Boeing 737 MAX has now been grounded for 2 months and is approaching its 3rd month on the ground. When will the type get flying again? In today's video, I attempt to squash all rumours and give you firm, frankly negative answer regarding the 737 MAX!

Technofreak

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#2247726 29-May-2019 14:04

dafman: I've arrived at my conclusions through reading various articles, videos and what other pilots have written about these events. Personally, I hold blame against Boeing, not the pilots. Boeing are culpable in two major areas (1) by developing software designed to control a plane's flight under certain circumstances, but (initially) keeping this a secret. (2) Boeing's refusal to advise Max 8 grounding following first crash was inexcusable (as they would have been aware that MCAS was a likely contributor).

Would you mind telling me what videos you've seen and where you’ve got your information from?

I’ve probably seen and read some of the same material you’ve seen and come to a completely different conclusion to you. Some of that material would seem completely plausible to someone without any knowledge of aircraft with systems that have some similarity to the 737 trim system. However it’s what is left out and how the material is presented that counts. In so many instances important stuff is left out or the material is presented in such a way it can be misleading. Without background experience the reader or viewer won’t know this.

It’s quite understandable for anyone to come up with a counter view point. I know there's widely different views among pilots as well, though I suspect some who have posted on various forums don't have a good understanding of what they are talking about.

Also I'm yet to see anyone with a good understanding of the 737 MAX place all the blame on Boeing. Yes, I've seen some grandstanding from some who have been held up by the media as being knowledgeable because of some roles they have had, aviation lawyer Maria Schiavo is one, who seem to have an agenda rather than stick to the facts.

What background experience do you have other than what you've read and seen to base your conclusions on?

Unfortunately you seem hell bent on placing all the blame on Boeing. That premise is totally unreasonable and that is why I take exception to your posts. There is plenty of evidence to show there were serious errors in the way other parties handled these and related events.

Let’snow look at the two major areas you refer to in your latest post.

Aircraft manufacturers have been putting technology into aircraft for many years that automatically control the flight path of an aircraft so that’s nothing new.

Not telling the operators about the inclusion of MCAS was certainly not the right thing to do and this is what the pilot unions in the US are upset about. That said the expected actions from the trim system in the event of a fault in the MCAS system would present to the pilots as a fault in the trim system. Following the standard procedures for a trim fault would resolve the problem. While I believe Boeing should have been more upfront about the MCAS system in my opinion on its own this lack of information didn’t cause the aircraft to crash.
Grounding the 737 MAX solely on the crash of the Lion Air crash would have been a gross over reaction. There are several reasons why I say this. That aircraft had had an issue with the AoA sensor on the previous flight and there is some evidence to suggest the fault wasn’t rectified properly. It was apparent from this crash that some crews were not fully conversant with the existing procedures in Boeings manuals for a trim fault. Boeing came clean and fessed up about the inclusion of MCAS and making operators aware of how it worked and interacted with the trim system.

There isn’t a strong case for grounding the world wide fleet because of a possible maintenance failure by one operator, and because some flight crew either weren’t aware of or didn’t choose to follow Boeing's instructions. The need for any grounding was further reduced by Boeing making operators aware of the MCAS system and publishing a bulletin reinforcing the need to adhere to published procedures.

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#2249871 2-Jun-2019 12:12

"I will not prejudge them, they were valiantly fighting for their lives."

Kevin Sullivan commenting on the pilots of the Ethiopian 737 Max 8. Kevin was the pilot of Qantas Flight 72 Airbus 330 that in 2008 was thrown into two near fatal automated dives. He has written a book on his experience and the quote above is from his interview this morning with Jim Mora on Radio New Zealand. Link to interview

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#2250183 3-Jun-2019 08:21

dafman:
"I will not prejudge them, they were valiantly fighting for their lives."
Kevin Sullivan commenting on the pilots of the Ethiopian 737 Max 8. Kevin was the pilot of Qantas Flight 72 Airbus 330 that in 2008 was thrown into two near fatal automated dives. He has written a book on his experience and the quote above is from his interview this morning with Jim Mora on Radio New Zealand. Link to interview

Your point is?

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#2250192 3-Jun-2019 09:01

Technofreak:
dafman:
"I will not prejudge them, they were valiantly fighting for their lives."
Kevin Sullivan commenting on the pilots of the Ethiopian 737 Max 8. Kevin was the pilot of Qantas Flight 72 Airbus 330 that in 2008 was thrown into two near fatal automated dives. He has written a book on his experience and the quote above is from his interview this morning with Jim Mora on Radio New Zealand. Link to interview

Your point is?

That Airbus has had the same problem but lucky for them they weren't fatal.

Regards,

Old3eyes

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#2254992 9-Jun-2019 22:01

This documentary makes very interesting viewing. It doesn't get the story completely right in places but gives a pretty good insight to some of the problems with airlines in Indonesia when it comes to pilot training, pilot competency, aircraft maintenance, airline management and regulatory oversight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSZ-R5HdPQU

While Air Asia features in the documentary, Lion Air also gets a mention. It's pretty hard to believe the factors focused on in the documentary didn't have a significant bearing in the Lion Air 737 Max crash.

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#2255002 9-Jun-2019 22:26

1. there are airlines with poor pilot training (and corruption is widespread in certain places, pilot entry or not), poor aircraft maintenance, poor safety record. i don't know who all these airlines are and i try not to fly with them

2. 2 boeing 737 Max 8 crashed

Look, did 1 cause 2 or 2 caused 2 independent of 1? I don't know, I can only read the mainstream news, but you seem to know. All I can tell is they haven't managed to crash the other planes as many times.

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#2255031 10-Jun-2019 08:27

Batman:

1. there are airlines with poor pilot training (and corruption is widespread in certain places, pilot entry or not), poor aircraft maintenance, poor safety record. i don't know who all these airlines are and i try not to fly with them

2. 2 boeing 737 Max 8 crashed

Look, did 1 cause 2 or 2 caused 2 independent of 1? I don't know, I can only read the mainstream news, but you seem to know. All I can tell is they haven't managed to crash the other planes as many times.

Have you actually looked at Lion Air's safety record? They've managed to crash 737-200's, multiple 737-400's, multiple 737-800's, 737-900ER's, an MD82 and an MD90.

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#2255065 10-Jun-2019 09:31

Batman:

1. there are airlines with poor pilot training (and corruption is widespread in certain places, pilot entry or not), poor aircraft maintenance, poor safety record. i don't know who all these airlines are and i try not to fly with them

2. 2 boeing 737 Max 8 crashed

Look, did 1 cause 2 or 2 caused 2 independent of 1? I don't know, I can only read the mainstream news, but you seem to know. All I can tell is they haven't managed to crash the other planes as many times.

Did you watch the linked documentary before replying? The documentary is 26 minutes long and you had replied 25 minutes later. Assuming you had to wait for a notification email, that doesn't give much time even if you played it "chipmunk speed".

Batman:

All I can tell is they haven't managed to crash the other planes as many times.

Ahem, you may want to do some research on that.

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#2255132 10-Jun-2019 11:27

Yes I watched the documentary in full. It's about poor training, corruption, bad safety record, the air asia crash that I've read the investigation of. They did not mention that Branson dressed up because he lost a bet with Tony.

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#2255148 10-Jun-2019 11:52

Batman: Yes I watched the documentary in full. It's about poor training, corruption, bad safety record, the air asia crash that I've read the investigation of. They did not mention that Branson dressed up because he lost a bet with Tony.

Understood. You were extremely prompt with you reply. 😊

One of the scary things in that documentary was trainee pilots failing their training yet still going back home to a job as a pilot.

The Air Asia A320 crash has similarities to the Air France 447 crash where an Airbus "design feature" was a significant contributor to both crashes. That is where the inputs from each side stick control can cancel each other out and neither pilot is necessarily aware of the other pilots inputs. Even though this has contributed to at least two fatal crashes there hasn't been a public outcry like there has been for the Boeing 737 Max.

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#2259694 17-Jun-2019 19:56

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/06/11/business/boeing-orders/index.html

Boeing reports no orders for second straight month

CNN

By Chris Isidore, CNN Business

Boeing reported no new commercial aircraft orders in May. It was the second straight month that Boeing's orders were at a standstill in the face of the 737 Max crisis.

The drop in orders isn't only because of the grounding of the 737 Max. Boeing also has a massive backorder of about 5,000 planes. Many of its customers do not need to place orders for additional jets right now.

Next week is also the Paris Air Show, the key industry trade show for the year, at which Boeing and rival Airbus typically like to announce orders. So May is often a slower month for new orders.

Yet Boeing booked orders for 43 jets in May of 2018, ahead of that year's Paris Air Show. And 21 of those orders were for the 737 Max.

The 737 Max was grounded in mid-March after the second fatal crash of one of the planes in Ethiopia. Boeing is trying to win federal approval for a fix of an automatic safety feature which has been the focus of the crash investigations.

Boeing has continued to build the 737 Max during the grounding, though at a reduced pace...

dafman

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#2259742 17-Jun-2019 21:07

Here's a very interesting investigative article from the BBC:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/sd9LGK2S9m/battle_over_blame

kingdragonfly

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#2259924 18-Jun-2019 08:27

dafman: Here's a very interesting investigative article from the BBC:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/sd9LGK2S9m/battle_over_blame

Good article

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#2261643 20-Jun-2019 20:16

BBC News. Boeing crashes: Pilot 'Sully' knows of desperate fight for life.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48631362

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