Another (2nd) 737 Max 8 crash

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#2641908 25-Jan-2021 19:57

dafman: The more I read, the more certain I am I will never board a 737 Max

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55751150

Sounds like you'll never board a commercial airliner again.

To me it just sounds like how a business runs a factory unfortunately. How do you know the factory that makes other commercial airliner isn't the same?

Ps if you care about worker welfare then maybe don't buy iphones too?

Technofreak

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#2641949 25-Jan-2021 21:47

dafman: The more I read, the more certain I am I will never board a 737 Max

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55751150

When I start seeing comments like those contained in the following excerpt I start to question the whole article.

His report draws on material from the official investigations. It claims that both of the crashed aircraft suffered from - what he believes - were production defects, almost from the moment they entered service.

These included intermittent flight control system problems and electrical anomalies that occurred in the days and weeks before the accidents.

He claims these may have been symptoms of flaws in the aircrafts' highly complex wiring systems, which could have contributed to the erroneous deployment of MCAS.

He also points out that sensor failures contributed to both accidents and asks why such failures were happening on brand new machines.

In the case of the Lion Air plane, a faulty sensor was replaced with another part that was not properly calibrated.

All signs, Mr Pierson says, "point back to where these airplanes were produced, the 737 factory".

However, he insists that the possibility of production defects playing a role in the accidents has not been addressed by regulators.

He claims this could lead to further tragedies, involving the Max or even a previous version of the 737.

Words like "He claims" and "He believes" are just claims and beliefs without hard evidence of which there is none quoted in the article.

"Which could have contributed", a lot of things could have contributed. The Captain having an itchy nose and his removing his hands from the controls to scratch the itch could have also contributed.

"The possibility of", is exactly that, just a possibility.

Aircraft are complex pieces of machinery and things fail from time to time, no matter the age of the aircraft. That's why the crew undertake intensive training to manage these situations.

The calibration, or lack there of, of the replacement sensor on the Lion Air Aircraft has nothing to do with Boeing. I remember reading that one possible cause of the sensor failure on the Ethiopian crash was a bird strike on the sensor, if true, once again not Boeing's fault.

The last claim about the issues even involving previous versions of the 737 is just scare mongering. The 737 has a very good safety record. If indeed there are the problems he alleges then why haven't we seen more accidents?

I note Mr Pierson came from the US Navy to Boeing and only worked at Boeing for 3 years. I really wonder what his role in the navy was and how that qualified him to be an expert on aircraft manufacturing.

This statement from that article does put some perspective on Mr Pierson's allegations.

The BBC has also spoken to a former senior inspector with the UK's Air Accident Investigations Branch (AAIB), who now works as a safety specialist. He warns that Mr Pierson's findings should be viewed in a wider context.

The report, he says, does make some "valid observations" about the pressures on Boeing's production line and quality control, and concerns about specific components.

However, he adds that "taking the limited information in any accident report… and making fresh interpretations of it, is not the same as conducting a new investigation".

The issues highlighted, he adds, "may have been investigated and dismissed already, for good reason"

Anyone buying a ticket on an airline absolutely has the right to choose what aircraft they may or may not wish to fly on, but as I've said before there are much more important factors about choosing who you fly with than who manufactures the aircraft.

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dafman

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#2642255 26-Jan-2021 11:32

Batman: Sounds like you'll never board a commercial airliner again.

Just the Max.

Batman: Ps if you care about worker welfare then maybe don't buy iphones too?

My post was about the airworthiness of the Max, not sure why you veered off into that tangent.

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#2644476 30-Jan-2021 20:27

EASA have given the 737 MAX their seal of approval

EASA Declares 737 MAX Safe to Return to Service

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#2796293 16-Oct-2021 19:55

Boeing Chief Technical Pilot criminally charged with duping FAA during development:

US Justice Dept: “Forkner allegedly abused his position of trust by intentionally withholding critical information about MCAS during the FAA evaluation and certification of the 737 MAX and from Boeing’s U.S.‑based airline customers,” said Assistant Attorney General Kenneth A. Polite Jr. of the Justice Department’s Criminal Division. “In doing so, he deprived airlines and pilots from knowing crucial information about an important part of the airplane’s flight controls.

Maybe this will lead to charges for executives maybe not.

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#2796306 16-Oct-2021 20:46

gzt: Boeing Chief Technical Pilot criminally charged with duping FAA during development:

US Justice Dept: “Forkner allegedly abused his position of trust by intentionally withholding critical information about MCAS during the FAA evaluation and certification of the 737 MAX and from Boeing’s U.S.‑based airline customers,” said Assistant Attorney General Kenneth A. Polite Jr. of the Justice Department’s Criminal Division. “In doing so, he deprived airlines and pilots from knowing crucial information about an important part of the airplane’s flight controls.

Maybe this will lead to charges for executives maybe not.

Probably not is my guess. He is the scapegoat.

There is no doubt Boeing has a bit to answer for. Also the FAA.

As I have said previously, in my opinion, if you're going to lay charges against Boeing, Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines also should be in the gun as well. However any action against either airline would normally be taken by the local aviation authority. I'm not sure there will be any appetite for them to do that as it may well open up other cans of worms.

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#2796488 17-Oct-2021 08:30

Technofreak:

Probably not is my guess. He is the scapegoat.

Yep, in my opinion it sounds like "Ok, whose turn is to take one for the team? You will be paid well, but won't be able to work after this."

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#2796542 17-Oct-2021 08:42

freitasm:

Technofreak:

Probably not is my guess. He is the scapegoat.

Yep, in my opinion it sounds like "Ok, whose turn is to take one for the team? You will be paid well, but won't be able to work after this."

Read on an aviation forum that he is facing up to 100 years jail time.

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#2796808 17-Oct-2021 18:10

This vrs the absence of criminal charges against the oxycontin drug peddlers..

Both should have been charged

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#2796817 17-Oct-2021 19:05

afe66: This vrs the absence of criminal charges against the oxycontin drug peddlers..

Offtopic. Charged and guilty: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/431399/oxycontin-maker-purdue-pharma-pleads-guilty-to-criminal-charges

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#2796831 17-Oct-2021 20:03

afe66: This vrs the absence of criminal charges against the oxycontin drug peddlers..

Both should have been charged

Two vastly different scenarios.

It will be interesting to see what comes out of the Boeing court case. I cannot see how one person alone can be totally reponsible. Also the regulatory oversight will be given a fair amount of scrutiny.

In my opinion there's a fair bit of grandstanding from the US authorities going on. While Boeing or one/some of it's employees will "pay their dues" the 737 Max highlighted massive deficiencies in some areas of aviation well out side of the control of Boeing or the FAA. Sadly these deficiencies are not being addressed.

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#3014858 28-Dec-2022 23:55

The NTSB have responded to the Ethiopian investigation.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/ntsb-challenges-ethiopian-aviation-authority-on-max-crash-final-report/?MailingID=1163

Primarily

Inadequate responses by the crew
Inadequate training provided by the airline
Foreign object damage to the AoA sensor.

The NTSB also said

“We agree that the uncommanded nose-down inputs from the airplane’s MCAS system should be part of the probable cause for this accident. However, the [EAIB’s] draft probable cause indicates that the MCAS alone caused the airplane to be ‘unrecoverable,’ and we believe that the probable cause also needs to acknowledge that appropriate crew management of the event, per the procedures that existed at the time, would have allowed the crew to recover the airplane even when faced with the uncommanded nose-down inputs. We propose that the probable cause in the final report present the following causal factors to fully reflect the circumstances of this accident:

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#3014859 29-Dec-2022 01:57

airlines are all over the 737 MAX, more orders than they can fulfill

Delta ordered 100, British airways 50, etc

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4559943-boeing-wins-key-boeing-737-max-orders

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#3017050 4-Jan-2023 21:22

The NTSB has been accused by some parties of being partisan in its response to the EAIB report. Now the French BEA who were invited to be involved by the EAIB have come out in support of the NTSB.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/french-investigators-join-ntsb-in-criticizing-ethiopian-737-max-report/

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#3023440 18-Jan-2023 22:44

this seasoned (40 years) pilot explains everything https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...

tl;dr - human factors, boeing MCAS design, FAA certification of MAX palava (only suggested, didn't explain) all contributing

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