Is Air New Zealand crapping on New Zealand?

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Uber Geek
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#1982397 23-Mar-2018 23:14

At the end of the day, they're not a subsidised bus company, and according to my kids, they should spend less on the dodgy safety videos and more on comfortable seats (girls aged 14 and 9).

They prefer Qantas. And they're kiwis.

kryptonjohn

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#1982415 24-Mar-2018 07:18

Wow how often are they flying to have formed such a preference?
All my kids care about is the in flight entertainment.

sbiddle

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#1982444 24-Mar-2018 09:44

The whole issue is a lot more complex than many may think. If Shane Jones wants regional services and expect services to operate even if they're not profitable then maybe he should be subsidising them much like all public transport is subsidised.

Many people have totally unrealistic views as to how much it costs to fly a plane. When you buy a $39 fare on a 1hr regional flight such as the example much earlier in this thread of a Napier to Auckland flight in Jetstar, that $39 is well below the cost of provding you a seat on the plane. You're effectively being subdisied to fly by somebody on that plane who's paying more for their ticket.

Rather than recognising the fact Air NZ is doing well in what is still a tough aviation market, we're knocking them. Do we really want them to be another Cathay Pacific that is bleeding huge $$$ in the current marketplace? Profits are essential, especially when they're looking at a $1.5 - $2 billion order for new aircraft to replace the whole 777 fleet in the next few months.

Dingbatt

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#1982450 24-Mar-2018 09:51

Perhaps we could whack 10c a litre on the price of petrol to provide the required subsidy? Seems to be a go-to for every other public transport woe.

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sbiddle

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#1982459 24-Mar-2018 10:06

I also find it interesting routes such as Taupo - Wellington was losing a lot of money for Air NZ using the B1900 (which is a pretty expensive plane to fly) and yet was deemed so important locally that they subsidised Sounds Air to fly there.

The whole irony of this is that 10 years from now Air NZ will probably just buy Air Chathams and it'll be history all over again - just like Mt Cook, Air Nelson and Eagle Air.

nzwaz

27 posts

Geek

#1982483 24-Mar-2018 11:18

The Taupo to Wellington service on Sounds Air is now great. It probably made sense to ditch the B1900s and then replace with the smaller more economic PC 12. Flight times are so much better now and it easy to do a return trip for a day of meetings. The AirNZ service to Auckland on the Q300 is must less useful with mid morning departures and then a 5pm ish return flight.

This article is a little old (June 2017) but it appears Sounds is doing well out of providing the service and Taupo DC had not had to subsidise anything!

http://www.taupodc.govt.nz/our-council/news/Pages/Strong-passenger-numbers-on-Taupo-to-Wellington-air-route.aspx

“The agreement sees Sounds Air provide at least three return flights each weekday and two return flights on Saturdays and Sundays. In return, council guarantees the first three seats per flight. To date, no financial contribution from the council has been required as part of the underwriting agreement.”

If there really is an economic case for a service someone else will pick it up and make it work.

ObidiahSlope

260 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1982486 24-Mar-2018 11:22

Another issue is Air Nelsons Q300 planes are no longer produced and they are getting long in the tooth.

Will AirNZ be able to find a suitable replacement or will it consolidate its prop fleet on the ATR with locations unable to support the greater seat numbers of this aircraft dropped?

Obsequious hypocrite

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empacher48

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#1982487 24-Mar-2018 11:24

Of course there are other “worldwide factors” at play here too.

I’m not 100% sure if it has hit NZ yet, but there is a massive shortage of qualified airline pilots.

I know that 2 years ago, Air NZ required about 140 pilots to join the regional airlines in 12 months, over and above the numbers that the group had at the time. In that same year 46 commercial pilots qualified in NZ.

Since then other airlines in other countries have been increasing terms and conditions to a level that has never seen before. I personally know of 45 regional airline pilots from NZ who are now flying for other airlines all over the world. On top of the AirNZ jet fleet taking somewhere around 100 pilots from the regional airlines. The net effect is, there may not be enough pilots to fly the planes. It is cheaper for an airline to pull frequencies and routes of their smaller aircraft and park them up, than to stop a 777 from flying.

Before anyone says that there is a need for pilotless aircraft, the aviation industry works very very slowly in regards to new tech on aircraft. The next aircraft Boeing is developing (the NMA or 797) will be available to airlines in the mid 2020’s still will have two pilots (minimum). Pilotless airliners won’t be certified to carry passengers until the 2030’s at the earliest. Aviation regulatory bodies work slowly and require a massive amount of testing and proving before this will be available.

Until then, expect either higher prices as airlines will have to compete with a smaller number of qualified pilots, or a massive reduction of services to cope with the number of pilots available.

DaveDog

336 posts

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#1982515 24-Mar-2018 12:15

empacher48: Of course there are other “worldwide factors” at play here too.

I’m not 100% sure if it has hit NZ yet, but there is a massive shortage of qualified airline pilots.

I know that 2 years ago, Air NZ required about 140 pilots to join the regional airlines in 12 months, over and above the numbers that the group had at the time. In that same year 46 commercial pilots qualified in NZ.

Since then other airlines in other countries have been increasing terms and conditions to a level that has never seen before. I personally know of 45 regional airline pilots from NZ who are now flying for other airlines all over the world. On top of the AirNZ jet fleet taking somewhere around 100 pilots from the regional airlines. The net effect is, there may not be enough pilots to fly the planes. It is cheaper for an airline to pull frequencies and routes of their smaller aircraft and park them up, than to stop a 777 from flying.

Before anyone says that there is a need for pilotless aircraft, the aviation industry works very very slowly in regards to new tech on aircraft. The next aircraft Boeing is developing (the NMA or 797) will be available to airlines in the mid 2020’s still will have two pilots (minimum). Pilotless airliners won’t be certified to carry passengers until the 2030’s at the earliest. Aviation regulatory bodies work slowly and require a massive amount of testing and proving before this will be available.

Until then, expect either higher prices as airlines will have to compete with a smaller number of qualified pilots, or a massive reduction of services to cope with the number of pilots available.

Maybe the high cost of pilot training is coming full circle to bite the Airlines on the backside. Also, with the downsizing of the Air Force I wonder if the number of pilots trained is also lower than say 10-20 years ago (as the air force was a good training paddock for the airlines).

In years past, airlines had their own flight schools - and maybe it's time for them to look at that again - or some scheme where they'll absorb your student loan costs for a guaranteed time of service.

Rikkitic

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#1982875 25-Mar-2018 15:15

Andrew Dickens on Newstalk ZB was almost a lone voice when he said Barack Obama was irrelevant.

"Let’s be frank. This is an Air New Zealand promo for New Zealanders organised by Sir John Key who is on the Air New Zealand board. It’s no wonder they’re playing at Kauri Cliffs and not a Paraparaumu where Tiger Woods played because there’s no way Barack Obama could fly into the Kapiti Coast this week," he added.

Good one, Andrew (my emphasis)

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

DaveDog

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#1982885 25-Mar-2018 15:18

Rikkitic:

Andrew Dickens on Newstalk ZB was almost a lone voice when he said Barack Obama was irrelevant.

"Let’s be frank. This is an Air New Zealand promo for New Zealanders organised by Sir John Key who is on the Air New Zealand board. It’s no wonder they’re playing at Kauri Cliffs and not a Paraparaumu where Tiger Woods played because there’s no way Barack Obama could fly into the Kapiti Coast this week," he added.

Good one, Andrew (my emphasis)

Or maybe the conspiracy isn't there at all... Obama flew into Auckland to do an Auckland presentation so makes sense to play near Auckland (which is also where Key happens to live)...

elpenguino

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Uber Geek

#1982893 25-Mar-2018 16:09

Kauri cliffs is near Auckland like hawera is near wellington.

What was the Obama presentation about anyway?

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Rikkitic

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#1982900 25-Mar-2018 16:50

DaveDog:

Or maybe the conspiracy isn't there at all... Obama flew into Auckland to do an Auckland presentation so makes sense to play near Auckland (which is also where Key happens to live)...

Not sure I understand. I wasn't suggesting a 'conspiracy', just expressing amusement at a an entertaining quip.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Rikkitic

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#1982901 25-Mar-2018 16:52

elpenguino: Kauri cliffs is near Auckland like hawera is near wellington.

What was the Obama presentation about anyway?

I think he retold the tale of executing Bin Laden. He had to say something for that half-million dollars.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

sbiddle

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#1982902 25-Mar-2018 16:52

ObidiahSlope:

Another issue is Air Nelsons Q300 planes are no longer produced and they are getting long in the tooth.

Will AirNZ be able to find a suitable replacement or will it consolidate its prop fleet on the ATR with locations unable to support the greater seat numbers of this aircraft dropped?

The Dash 8 fleet ranges between 9 and 13 years old which is not really that old at all. Nobody except Air NZ knows their plans for this fleet but the rumours certainly have been that over the next couple of years the older aircraft will exit the fleet and be placed with some of the ATR76s that are still on order. The logical conclusion would be that Air NZs next few regional exists would likely be airports where the ATR is restricted.

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