Ukraine War discussion

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#2975186 30-Sep-2022 07:56

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/300701433/russia-set-to-annex-four-ukraine-regions-with-kremlin-ceremony-and-major-speech-by-president-vladimir-putin

So, the traditional way of winning a war is to fight, and win.

Or you could just say you won.

shk292

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#2975667 30-Sep-2022 20:43

It's sad really. I visited Russia in 98 as part of a NATO task group and it was really encouraging seeing them climbing out of the hole of socialism; we were even making advances towards cooperation with the "Partnership for Peace" thing. Sure, there was the whole Russian mafia thing going on but there seemed to be glimmers of hope underneath. St Petersburg was a great place to visit and there was a lot of respect for what they went through in WW2 with the siege - I was glad not to be on the German ship!

Now, they're in the thrall of a deluded psychopath and are spiralling down into 3rd world status. About time they had another revolution or someone gave Putin what he deserves.

SJB

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#2975713 1-Oct-2022 08:45

Unfortunately, as someone might have already commented on here, if you get rid of Putin you will just end up with someone else just like him.

It's the mindset of the entire leadership that needs a complete sea change and then the phrase 'turkeys voting for Christmas' comes to mind.

tdgeek

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#2975726 1-Oct-2022 09:30

Perhaps. Or, a proposed new leader promises to get Russia back inside the world and move forward. For once. Maybe the oil dollars can benefit the masses and not just 50 people

kingdragonfly

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#2975732 1-Oct-2022 09:52

It seems too far afield, too hard logistically, for the Ukrainians. I'd guess ideally a remotely operated sub could do it. Anyone heard any rumors?

Reuters: Putin accuses West of blowing up pipelines as Europe steps up vigilance

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday blamed the United States and its allies for blowing up the undersea Nord Stream pipelines, raising the temperature in a crisis that has left Europe racing to secure its energy infrastructure and supplies.

In a speech to mark the annexation of four Ukrainian regions invaded by Russian forces, Putin offered no evidence for the claim. Russia has previously said the United States would profit from attacks on Europe's energy infrastructure.
...
The Nord Stream pipelines, which were not pumping gas to Europe when the leaks were found but had gas in them, have been flashpoints in an energy standoff between the West and Russia since its invasion of Ukraine, fuelling a cost-of-living crisis.

kingdragonfly

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#2975734 1-Oct-2022 09:58

Putin may be lying. How'd have thunk?

CNN: European security officials observed Russian Navy ships in vicinity of Nord Stream pipeline leaks

European security officials on Monday and Tuesday observed Russian Navy support ships in the vicinity of leaks in the Nord Stream pipelines likely caused by underwater explosions, according two Western intelligence officials and one other source familiar with the matter.

It’s unclear whether the ships had anything to do with those explosions, these sources and others said – but it’s one of the many factors that investigators will be looking into.

Russian submarines were also observed not far from those areas last week, one of the intelligence officials said.

Three US officials said that the US has no thorough explanation yet for what happened, days after the explosions appeared to cause three separate and simultaneous leaks in the two pipelines on Monday.

Russian ships routinely operate in the area, according to one Danish military official, who emphasized that the presence of the ships doesn’t necessarily indicate that Russia caused the damage.

A large disturbance in the sea can be observed off the coast of the Danish island of Bornholm Tuesday, Sept. 27, 2022 following a series of unusual leaks on two natural gas pipelines running from Russia under the Baltic Sea to Germany have triggered concerns about possible sabotage. Danish Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen says she "cannot rule out" sabotage after three leaks were detected on Nord Stream 1 and 2. (Danish Defence Command via AP)
Gas is pouring out of the Nord Stream pipelines. Here's what you need to know
“We see them every week,” this person said. “Russian activities in the Baltic Sea have increased in recent years. They’re quite often testing our awareness – both at sea and in the air.”

But the sightings still cast further suspicion on Russia, which has drawn the most attention from both European and US officials as the only actor in the region believed to have both the capability and motivation to deliberately damage the pipelines.

US officials declined to comment on the intelligence about the ships on Wednesday.
...

K8Toledo

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#2976009 1-Oct-2022 17:23

Why sabotage Nordstream when it's not even supplying gas? What's the point?

rugrat

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#2976013 1-Oct-2022 17:46

K8Toledo:

Why sabotage Nordstream when it's not even supplying gas? What's the point?

As Russia controls the gas going through pipes, what do they have to gain by damaging/destroying them?

There are reports of an American helicopter in area as well, so need stronger evidence then what boats/helicopters etc were where.

https://amp.dw.com/en/fact-check-us-helicopter-flight-no-proof-of-sabotage-of-nord-stream-pipeline/a-63295189

I guess reason for sabotage is to make sure no gas flows in future, or to hope wrong country gets the blame.

kingdragonfly

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#2976016 1-Oct-2022 17:57

Twitter: abandoned Russians

"Russian mobilized soldiers say that they have been abandoned in a very exposed position by their commanders who ran away.

The say that they have no weapons to defend themselves with, no drones and no night-vision

Ukrainians closing in"

"If only [Sergei] Shoigu[, Minister of Defence of the Russian Federation] knew this, and Shoigu told [Lieutenant General Igor Yevgenyevich} Konashenkov, [the chief spokesperson] what is happening in this stupid army that is not acting at all.

In movies it's f__king great. In reality it's mayhem.

Worse than the AFU,[Armed Forces of Ukraine]"

kingdragonfly

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#2976021 1-Oct-2022 18:15

Twitter: Resident of Russian rural Dagestan targeted by illegal conscription. . 83% of the population of Dagestan adheres to Islam,

"The head of Dagestan, Sergei Melikov, has absolutely lost it with Derbent's draft officers after they drove around with megaphones telling *every man* in the city to turn up at the conscription centre"

tdgeek

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#2976026 1-Oct-2022 18:39

K8Toledo:

Why sabotage Nordstream when it's not even supplying gas? What's the point?

Annoyance, but with no proof, apart from Russian ships being sighted there. Its pathetic.

tdgeek

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#2976029 1-Oct-2022 18:43

Ive decided to annex Australia next week, mainly Seaworld and Dreamworld. But I will have the votes

Yes, thats a stupid comment. But in Putin World, its fine.

Im hoping the West make a stand. And not sanctions on iPhones...

What aggravates me is that this is a joke. Yet, the West is allowing it. Which is tantamount to encouraging it

tdgeek

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#2976032 1-Oct-2022 18:50

I see PRNK is acting up. Its related to this thread as ts playing on the UKR conflict. The West needs to say, PRNK recent actions are not newsworthy

ezbee

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#2976036 1-Oct-2022 19:06

Of Dictators and Pipelines.
Considering the mad things Putin has done with Polonium Tea, Novichok Perfumes and Underwear.
His KGB background, anything that amplifies FUD , he will chuckle himself to sleep over..
It's not being used, it's his pipeline, not an attack on NATO/EU, so no consequences.

Possible benefits.
1/ A warning, accidents that are difficult to prove responsibility might happen to others.
Norway Poland pipeline was just opened. Power and communications cables also cross that sea.

2/ Feed disinformation engine, more crazy conspiracy theories can grow and prosper.
KGB, then FSB under Putin developed contacts with Right, Tucker Carlson, Infowars etc.

3/ With certain environmental events comming up great opportunity to get their attention.
KGB and later FSB already has very good contacts on left.
Give up to end war and save the planet, climate emergency more important.
These are also prone to 'west is all bad' to help 2 along.

4/ Get this all on the front page everywhere with press naturally discussing all angles.
The fear of a cold winter and multiple escalation points.

FUD by playing coy with who did this to further amplify 2, 3. and 4

tdgeek

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#2976038 1-Oct-2022 19:17

ezbee:

Of Dictators and Pipelines.
Considering the mad things Putin has done with Polonium Tea, Novichok Perfumes and Underwear.
His KGB background, anything that amplifies FUD , he will chuckle himself to sleep over..
It's not being used, it's his pipeline, not an attack on NATO/EU, so no consequences.

Possible benefits.
1/ A warning, accidents that are difficult to prove responsibility might happen to others.
Norway Poland pipeline was just opened. Power and communications cables also cross that sea.

2/ Feed disinformation engine, more crazy conspiracy theories can grow and prosper.
KGB, then FSB under Putin developed contacts with Right, Tucker Carlson, Infowars etc.

3/ With certain environmental events comming up great opportunity to get their attention.
KGB and later FSB already has very good contacts on left.
Give up to end war and save the planet, climate emergency more important.
These are also prone to 'west is all bad' to help 2 along.

4/ Get this all on the front page everywhere with press naturally discussing all angles.
The fear of a cold winter and multiple escalation points.

FUD by playing coy with who did this to further amplify 2, 3. and 4

Yep. He is treading a fine line. 146 million people will not only continue a 2nd world existence, that will become permanent. 146M vs 1 will be interesting to watch. The 146M have a lot to gain if they are (as citizens) are given access to Russian resources (Leo Tolstoy, Everyone is equal but some are more equal than others)

The cream will rise to the top one day (citizens, democracy, fairness)

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