So it begins...

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Ultimate Geek
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#1958645 15-Feb-2018 15:28

elpenguino:

networkn:

I don't have any particular love for JC. I think Nationals *policies* are better for NZ, but I don't care the name of the party I vote for, I care who will do the most to help NZ.

If you can provide some actual evidence to support your claim she did something wrong, I am happy to take a look at that with an open mind. Can't see how that's likely given she is back in Parliment. If you believe she was given a free pass, who do you believe gave her this pass? Who investigated her that had any particular interest in letting her off the hook?

So , assuming you voted for national, how did you feel about the state house sell off when the size of the house crisis was already laid bare?

Did that seem like a party with the interests of all NZers at heart?

In this case the "[best] interests of all NZers" is very subjective to opinion/values.

In my perspective the government is not obliged to provide housing, they are obliged to provide an economy (in the broadest sense) that allows for all society to find accommodation. But i believe the government should provide emergency accommodation (not necessarily in the form of state houses...) for those with a genuine need, but this should not be a long term solution to anybody (except for say physically disabled people, etc).

Pumpedd

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#1958647 15-Feb-2018 15:29

networkn:

Pumpedd:

Has everyone forgotten that Collins lied to the PM and was demoted for a long time. She is very self serving and cannot be trusted. Even although she would be a good opposition leader she could well cause more harm than good. Her dealing with the Chinese are also not clear.

I think her dealings with the Chinese was investigated and found to have done nothing wrong. Thing with politiics, is you only have to act in a way that raises the QUESTION and you are done for.

I think there is a trait that I see in aid/NGO workers that I also see in politicians I am not sure I could find a nice way to describe it. I think also there is degree of self serving in all politicians.

Your comment that she would be a good leader of the opposition, is fair, but I think the extension of that is she may not be an ideal choice as PM. To that end I do wonder if a Bridges/Collins leader/co-leader thing would be ideal, however I am unsure if Collins would ever be prepared to permanently accept 2IC. I think her ambition has always been PM.

I still believe that John Key demoted her for telling lies to him. It wasnt really resolved to Keys expectations the line between her/her husbands business trips and her government work. She is and has been extremely shady at times. Yes, she was exonerated from the illegal activity, but it took a long time.

I do agree with you that she could well do the job, but the she needs to be sound and not capable of hurting National at some future point.

tdgeek

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#1958649 15-Feb-2018 15:31

Umm, if discussions are about Nat vs Lab its probably better in the JA thread

The leadership changes here are interesting in their own right, and that's what this thread is about.

So if you guys can stand down, the other thread is down the hallway, third door on the right! Or left? No, just the third door! No left or right anymore !

tdgeek

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#1958651 15-Feb-2018 15:34

Pumpedd:

networkn:

Pumpedd:

Has everyone forgotten that Collins lied to the PM and was demoted for a long time. She is very self serving and cannot be trusted. Even although she would be a good opposition leader she could well cause more harm than good. Her dealing with the Chinese are also not clear.

I think her dealings with the Chinese was investigated and found to have done nothing wrong. Thing with politiics, is you only have to act in a way that raises the QUESTION and you are done for.

I think there is a trait that I see in aid/NGO workers that I also see in politicians I am not sure I could find a nice way to describe it. I think also there is degree of self serving in all politicians.

Your comment that she would be a good leader of the opposition, is fair, but I think the extension of that is she may not be an ideal choice as PM. To that end I do wonder if a Bridges/Collins leader/co-leader thing would be ideal, however I am unsure if Collins would ever be prepared to permanently accept 2IC. I think her ambition has always been PM.

I still believe that John Key demoted her for telling lies to him. It wasnt really resolved to Keys expectations the line between her/her husbands business trips and her government work. She is and has been extremely shady at times. Yes, she was exonerated from the illegal activity, but it took a long time.

I do agree with you that she could well do the job, but the she needs to be sound and not capable of hurting National at some future point.

I think that is a fair assessment.

networkn

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#1958652 15-Feb-2018 15:36

Pumpedd:

I still believe that John Key demoted her for telling lies to him. It wasnt really resolved to Keys expectations the line between her/her husbands business trips and her government work. She is and has been extremely shady at times. Yes, she was exonerated from the illegal activity, but it took a long time.

I do agree with you that she could well do the job, but the she needs to be sound and not capable of hurting National at some future point.

I feel she was guilty of not thinking of how her actions would appear. I have no evidence to support the view she did anything specifically wrong.

Investigations take time, esp ones where the witnesses may be overseas, don't speak English, may not co-operate etc. I don't think the length of time is that relevant. It might have take less time and she delayed coming back till the dust settled.

At the end of the day, politicians make mistakes. They are people. It's reasonable to consider she is a better person after those mistakes and learned from them.

I do worry JC is too hot headed, I feel she only operates in bull dog mode, and that won't get her across the line I don't think. Right now I can't see her running around the country kissing babies, though English surprised me by showing a very human side of himself I really liked.

tdgeek

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#1958671 15-Feb-2018 16:53

gzt:
tdgeek:
another option, weird as it may be https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/101464323/could-a-dark-horse-be-the-surprise-winner-in-national-leadership-contest

Exactly. This isn't the kind of contest where candidates must register.

The entire caucus goes into a room and one person comes out as the new party leader potential future prime minister. It's that simple. It could be anyone on the day. Including people who rule themselves out the day before.

Yep
They all vote and the loser of say the four of them is out. Vote again and the next loser goes and do on.

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tdgeek

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#1958673 15-Feb-2018 16:59

networkn:
Pumpedd:

I still believe that John Key demoted her for telling lies to him. It wasnt really resolved to Keys expectations the line between her/her husbands business trips and her government work. She is and has been extremely shady at times. Yes, she was exonerated from the illegal activity, but it took a long time.

I do agree with you that she could well do the job, but the she needs to be sound and not capable of hurting National at some future point.

I feel she was guilty of not thinking of how her actions would appear. I have no evidence to support the view she did anything specifically wrong.

Investigations take time, esp ones where the witnesses may be overseas, don't speak English, may not co-operate etc. I don't think the length of time is that relevant. It might have take less time and she delayed coming back till the dust settled.

At the end of the day, politicians make mistakes. They are people. It's reasonable to consider she is a better person after those mistakes and learned from them.

I do worry JC is too hot headed, I feel she only operates in bull dog mode, and that won't get her across the line I don't think. Right now I can't see her running around the country kissing babies, though English surprised me by showing a very human side of himself I really liked.

Your last paragraph
JK was mild and diplomatic. Bill was mild and diplomatic. JC could be a mini Muldoon. That’s a disaster in today’s world.
That’s my main preference for Bridges plus he is clean

MaxLV

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#1958687 15-Feb-2018 17:29

Pumpedd:

At least National doesnt have to go to the Trade Unions to elect a leader. Arrggh!!

Naaa they just go to their corporate business masters/buddies to find out which potential leader will have the most cash/donation earning potential in return for favourable 'treatment'...

rjt123

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#1958736 15-Feb-2018 19:01

MaxLV:
Naaa they just go to their corporate business masters/buddies to find out which potential leader will have the most cash/donation earning potential in return for favourable 'treatment'...

No the business vote (and money ) has been guarantee d for National by labour's policies.

I've actually been thinking, it easy to fall into the mindset that they need to counter Jacinda with something similar, but what they actually need is to just maintain, their voter base and pick up NZF vote (I doubt Winston will stand again). So I don't know the young or fresh is necessary. So I'm warming to the idea of JC as PM, as taking a tough stance to appeal to the right wing, and maybe bridges as deputy to be a cooler head.

gzt

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#1958766 15-Feb-2018 19:51

Adams seems unlikely. Collins is a bit polarising for many. From the three it looks like it will be Bridges.

Pumpedd

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#1958780 15-Feb-2018 20:23

MaxLV:

Pumpedd:

At least National doesnt have to go to the Trade Unions to elect a leader. Arrggh!!

Naaa they just go to their corporate business masters/buddies to find out which potential leader will have the most cash/donation earning potential in return for favourable 'treatment'...

Just make that up?

Amazing.

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Fred99

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#1958784 15-Feb-2018 20:35

Pumpedd:

MaxLV:

Pumpedd:

At least National doesnt have to go to the Trade Unions to elect a leader. Arrggh!!

Naaa they just go to their corporate business masters/buddies to find out which potential leader will have the most cash/donation earning potential in return for favourable 'treatment'...

Just make that up?

Amazing.

While being somewhat cynical perhaps, it's probably fundamentally true.

networkn

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#1958811 15-Feb-2018 22:01

MaxLV:

Pumpedd:

At least National doesnt have to go to the Trade Unions to elect a leader. Arrggh!!

Naaa they just go to their corporate business masters/buddies to find out which potential leader will have the most cash/donation earning potential in return for favourable 'treatment'...

So pumpped quotes fact and you reply with FUD. Sounds about right.

Fred99

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#1958813 15-Feb-2018 22:08

networkn:

MaxLV:

Pumpedd:

At least National doesnt have to go to the Trade Unions to elect a leader. Arrggh!!

Naaa they just go to their corporate business masters/buddies to find out which potential leader will have the most cash/donation earning potential in return for favourable 'treatment'...

So pumpped quotes fact and you reply with FUD. Sounds about right.

I think it was almost certainly an astute observation - as opposed to FUD. Of course that's how it is. It would be extremely naive to believe otherwise.
Sometimes the partisan "opinion" in this forum - and the associated "team spirit" amazes me.

networkn

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#1958827 15-Feb-2018 22:23

Fred99:

I think it was almost certainly an astute observation - as opposed to FUD. Of course that's how it is. It would be extremely naive to believe otherwise.
Sometimes the partisan "opinion" in this forum - and the associated "team spirit" amazes me.

The complaints of cronyism blah blah are old and tired cliches. Every party makes promises to it's donors, or at least entertains conversations about the direction donors would like to see the party go policy and even specific project wise. To suggest otherwise is what's naive. From the left every time the right is mentioned, so is cronyism, favouritism blah blah.

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