Metiria Turei's confessed benefit fraud

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Networkn
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#1844990 11-Aug-2017 09:47

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networkn:

Rikkitic:

Also no expert but my understanding is that it has at least partially to do with simple numbers. When you were a kid there were a lot fewer cows to pollute the water, thus probably lower risk swimming in it. National seems (if I understand correctly) to think that the answer to everything is just much more of the same and as a result dairying has been massively intensified, with all the problems that go with that.

I don't think you understand correctly. National has a water ways regeneration plan, but like any plan, you can find an "expert" who will say it's not the right way and plenty of people who will say that unless you repair it to 100% tomorrow, it's not enough.

Nope Rikkitic has it reasonably accurate given what I read on the subject. The government is planning to double primary exports (ie farming) by 2025 and is funding irrigation. This will worsen the nitrate levels in our waterways even further, which have grown at the fastest rate in the OECD between 1998 - 2009. The nitrate comes from urine and fertilizer.

I'm more inclined to believe experts from the OECD than Nick Smith. They say

Well, I haven't read that, but even if that is true, is Labour planning on scrapping that idea? Do farmers know? Other than charging farmers for the water they use, if Labour doesn't intend to stop the plan to double farming exports then the same chemicals are going into the ground.

Neither of those things addresses Nationals other plans to improve water quality in NZ.

6FIEND

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#1845027 11-Aug-2017 10:38

How about we get back on topic. (We can create a separate water quality thread :-)

Perhaps (given that MT has stood down from the leadership of the Green Party) we could discuss why the two Green MP's (who took a principled stance and resigned because they felt that they could no longer support her) are unlikely to be permitted back into the party?

Or possibly, we might speculate whether this whole event was a spectacular "set-up" by politicians from competing parties. (There certainly have been a constant stream of "leaks" to various press outlets from the moment Turei went public about her actions. Leaks that continued inexorably to make her position as co-leader more and more untenable.)

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#1845156 11-Aug-2017 13:24

6FIEND:

How about we get back on topic. (We can create a separate water quality thread :-)

Perhaps (given that MT has stood down from the leadership of the Green Party) we could discuss why the two Green MP's (who took a principled stance and resigned because they felt that they could no longer support her) are unlikely to be permitted back into the party?

Or possibly, we might speculate whether this whole event was a spectacular "set-up" by politicians from competing parties. (There certainly have been a constant stream of "leaks" to various press outlets from the moment Turei went public about her actions. Leaks that continued inexorably to make her position as co-leader more and more untenable.)

I wonder if the two MPS that resigned were considering leaving anyway and this affair tipped their decision. They are a big loss of knowledge and the Green Party executive should do some hard work to get them back.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

networkn

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#1845166 11-Aug-2017 13:32

MikeB4:

6FIEND:

How about we get back on topic. (We can create a separate water quality thread :-)

Perhaps (given that MT has stood down from the leadership of the Green Party) we could discuss why the two Green MP's (who took a principled stance and resigned because they felt that they could no longer support her) are unlikely to be permitted back into the party?

Or possibly, we might speculate whether this whole event was a spectacular "set-up" by politicians from competing parties. (There certainly have been a constant stream of "leaks" to various press outlets from the moment Turei went public about her actions. Leaks that continued inexorably to make her position as co-leader more and more untenable.)

I wonder if the two MPS that resigned were considering leaving anyway and this affair tipped their decision. They are a big loss of knowledge and the Green Party executive should do some hard work to get them back.

They were pretty much leaving anyway. One guy apparently had only made 3 MP related calls in the past 8 weeks! That gives me additional concern over the value of the greens MP's. I am sure some of them work hard, but it's disgraceful they were allowed to draw salaries doing next to no work. The Leadership of the Greens knew it was happening.

Wiggum

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#1845168 11-Aug-2017 13:33

MikeB4:

6FIEND:

How about we get back on topic. (We can create a separate water quality thread :-)

Perhaps (given that MT has stood down from the leadership of the Green Party) we could discuss why the two Green MP's (who took a principled stance and resigned because they felt that they could no longer support her) are unlikely to be permitted back into the party?

Or possibly, we might speculate whether this whole event was a spectacular "set-up" by politicians from competing parties. (There certainly have been a constant stream of "leaks" to various press outlets from the moment Turei went public about her actions. Leaks that continued inexorably to make her position as co-leader more and more untenable.)

I wonder if the two MPS that resigned were considering leaving anyway and this affair tipped their decision. They are a big loss of knowledge and the Green Party executive should do some hard work to get them back.

Remember that although they "resigned", there is actually more to it. Shaw had said that their actions had brought the party into disrepute. And that the way that they chose to go about it was a violation of every Green Party norm, culture and process. Shaw would need to eat humble pie if he were to accept them back. Besides, I don't see how it could be done without him changing his stance on Metiria (Which he still has not)

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#1845170 11-Aug-2017 13:37

networkn:

MikeB4:

6FIEND:

How about we get back on topic. (We can create a separate water quality thread :-)

Perhaps (given that MT has stood down from the leadership of the Green Party) we could discuss why the two Green MP's (who took a principled stance and resigned because they felt that they could no longer support her) are unlikely to be permitted back into the party?

Or possibly, we might speculate whether this whole event was a spectacular "set-up" by politicians from competing parties. (There certainly have been a constant stream of "leaks" to various press outlets from the moment Turei went public about her actions. Leaks that continued inexorably to make her position as co-leader more and more untenable.)

I wonder if the two MPS that resigned were considering leaving anyway and this affair tipped their decision. They are a big loss of knowledge and the Green Party executive should do some hard work to get them back.

They were pretty much leaving anyway. One guy apparently had only made 3 MP related calls in the past 8 weeks! That gives me additional concern over the value of the greens MP's. I am sure some of them work hard, but it's disgraceful they were allowed to draw salaries doing next to no work. The Leadership of the Greens knew it was happening.

I suspect that if our news media journalists cared to investigate, there'd be list MPs from all the major parties with similar level of (lack of) contribution to their party and the nation.

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Sidestep

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#1845272 11-Aug-2017 15:32

networkn:

They were pretty much leaving anyway. One guy apparently had only made 3 MP related calls in the past 8 weeks! That gives me additional concern over the value of the greens MP's. I am sure some of them work hard, but it's disgraceful they were allowed to draw salaries doing next to no work. The Leadership of the Greens knew it was happening.

They were both long term, very hard working MPs, who felt to remain true to their values they couldn't support Metiria as a Party Leader.

It was Sarah Helm – the Green's Manager - who said David and Kennedy had been asked to resign before this year's list was drawn up, which was a 'Trump like' alternative reality.
She then said their resignations were in protest over the ranking positions, which was again untrue, Kennedy was a shoo-in at #8 and David was likely to get in with the Greens Polling before this came up..

A bunch of untrue things were said and now can never be unsaid (though they've been officially 'retracted') And shame on James Shaw for allowing this stuff to go unchallenged,
He should resign too.

Kennedy has said he'd consider rejoining the Greens now Metiria's gone, for the sake of the important work he's doing worldwide on climate change.
David's not going to. He's shocked that the party he's been with for 26 years would sink to that level of vitriol and lies.

This has written the Green vote off for me. They'll likely get their 5% and James - #1 on the list - will be back along with 5 or so other party stalwarts, but I think they'll look back at the 2011 and 2014 elections when they got 11% - 14 seats – as the good old days...

Sadly it's likely the up and coming faces of new green politics like Golriz and Chloe won't get in even though they've jumped up the list.
And are probably having second thoughts about whether they actually want to..

tdgeek

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#1845292 11-Aug-2017 16:41

Sidestep:

networkn:

They were pretty much leaving anyway. One guy apparently had only made 3 MP related calls in the past 8 weeks! That gives me additional concern over the value of the greens MP's. I am sure some of them work hard, but it's disgraceful they were allowed to draw salaries doing next to no work. The Leadership of the Greens knew it was happening.

They were both long term, very hard working MPs, who felt to remain true to their values they couldn't support Metiria as a Party Leader.

It was Sarah Helm – the Green's Manager - who said David and Kennedy had been asked to resign before this year's list was drawn up, which was a 'Trump like' alternative reality.
She then said their resignations were in protest over the ranking positions, which was again untrue, Kennedy was a shoo-in at #8 and David was likely to get in with the Greens Polling before this came up..

A bunch of untrue things were said and now can never be unsaid (though they've been officially 'retracted') And shame on James Shaw for allowing this stuff to go unchallenged,
He should resign too.

Kennedy has said he'd consider rejoining the Greens now Metiria's gone, for the sake of the important work he's doing worldwide on climate change.
David's not going to. He's shocked that the party he's been with for 26 years would sink to that level of vitriol and lies.

This has written the Green vote off for me. They'll likely get their 5% and James - #1 on the list - will be back along with 5 or so other party stalwarts, but I think they'll look back at the 2011 and 2014 elections when they got 11% - 14 seats – as the good old days...

Sadly it's likely the up and coming faces of new green politics like Golriz and Chloe won't get in even though they've jumped up the list.
And are probably having second thoughts about whether they actually want to..

Yes, it needs a regime change not just a new leader. Take a leaf.

shk292

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#1845438 11-Aug-2017 22:54

Maybe this is a good opportunity for a split - form a true green party which prioritises environmental issues and will work with any government to influence and achieve this. And a far left / social justice party (maybe in conjunction with Mana) that espouses the issues M T was keen on. I'm continually frustrated that worldwide, these two camps are merged into what seems to be an anti-capitalist/anti-success party.

tdgeek

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#1845448 11-Aug-2017 23:34

shk292:

Maybe this is a good opportunity for a split - form a true green party which prioritises environmental issues and will work with any government to influence and achieve this. And a far left / social justice party (maybe in conjunction with Mana) that espouses the issues M T was keen on. I'm continually frustrated that worldwide, these two camps are merged into what seems to be an anti-capitalist/anti-success party.

Was thinking that today. Its two parties. If they will work with anyone (and why not as they are Green not left,centre, or right) they can get things done.

6FIEND

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#1846154 14-Aug-2017 08:48

tdgeek:

shk292:

Maybe this is a good opportunity for a split - form a true green party which prioritises environmental issues and will work with any government to influence and achieve this. And a far left / social justice party (maybe in conjunction with Mana) that espouses the issues M T was keen on. I'm continually frustrated that worldwide, these two camps are merged into what seems to be an anti-capitalist/anti-success party.

Was thinking that today. Its two parties. If they will work with anyone (and why not as they are Green not left,centre, or right) they can get things done.

Precisely.

In my opinion, the Green Party's confirmation that they would not work with National (even if only to provide confidence and supply in exchange for some key environmental concessions) is the #1 reason why they've never been in government - after almost two decades of trying.

When National was in government, they were obviously not there.

When Labour was in government, they were not there because Helen knew she had their vote without giving up any cabinet places.

If there was a focused environmental/conservation party that could work across the political spectrum, they would likely be an effective voice in most future governments.

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Wiggum

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#1850474 22-Aug-2017 16:33

Obviously broke. Now asking for money. Interesting she is still so much associated with the Greens

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#1850556 22-Aug-2017 17:12

Wiggum:

Obviously broke. Now asking for money. Interesting she is still so much associated with the Greens

Her idea of a "compassionate welfare system" is a little different to mine.

tdgeek

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#1850664 22-Aug-2017 20:40

Yesterdays news

Rikkitic

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#1855240 30-Aug-2017 12:49

Here is a different perspective. Some people of course will never be persuaded that any other point of view can possibly be worth considering, but for the rest of us, it never hurts to question your assumptions.

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