NZ gun laws

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250 posts

Master Geek

#2201715 19-Mar-2019 14:34

While I'm sure you could get something illegal in Australia if you wanted, the effort and difficulty would make quite hard as well as doing so without gettting noticed as random Joe Public.

Why go to the effort of that when you can easily enter here and then with minimal legal fuss, purchase what you need in plain sight and without anybody batting an eyelid?

shk292

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#2201726 19-Mar-2019 14:43

Rikkitic:

People keep coming up with this fake equivalence argument. Vehicles are many, many, many times more useful for more things than firearms are, but they are already being restricted to make it harder for terrorists. Places where you used to be able to drive now have barriers around them. This will increase. If the danger from terrorist drivers increases, it will increase more, despite the inconvenience this causes. There is no fundamental difference in this regard between cars and guns or anything else that can be abused to sow terror.

It's not a "fake" equivalence - it's very real and if the fix is ugly concrete blocks all around our public spaces then it's truly a sad time. You can't escape the fact that there are many ways to commit mass murder (how many did Harold Shipman kill with syringes?). Restricting the possession of semi-automatic weapons solely to criminals remains in my opinion a really bad way to reduce terrorism, deciding to do it within 48 hours of a terrorist attack is even less sensible.

It would be more effective to toughen up the storage regulations and to enforce these more consistently

Varkk

643 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2201733 19-Mar-2019 14:50

Rikkitic:

Is it possible, or even easy, to modify the kinds of semi-automatic weapons available here to operate as full automatics (like the 'bump stock' add-ons used in the USA?).

Depends on the model. Apparently some Semis are modified versions of a fully automatic weapon. With these it can be a simple modification to revert to full auto, remove a pin from the trigger mechanism is one example a gun club member at work mentioned. Others you can add some bits or construct a new assembly which allows full auto operation. Although they require access to the right tools. Not impossible but often unlikely for the type of person who carries out attacks.

kingdragonfly

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#2201758 19-Mar-2019 14:59

Rikkitic:
Is it possible, or even easy, to modify the kinds of semi-automatic weapons available here to operate as full automatics (like the 'bump stock' add-ons used in the USA?).

I believe NZ civilians can buy semi-automatic versions of a good number of military full-automatic weapons.

If a civilian buys one, the parts to convert it to fully-automatic are not illegal in countries like the US; it varies by state.

The unsettling aspect is the parts are very small, and it's not obvious to even well-trained border security the purpose of the parts.

However the skills needed are minimal.

It is VERY illegal in most countries to convert a semi-automatic weapon to fully automatic, without a proper license.

With the infamous "bump stocks" the skills needed are even less. Since it's not metal, it's hard for border security to spot.

Fred99

13684 posts

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#2201770 19-Mar-2019 15:19

shk292:

I don't own an MSSA or have any intention of ever owning one, but I think there's a slippery slope when you start deciding what people "need to possess" in the first 48 hours after a traumatic event caused by a deranged pyschopath

Please stop calling him that.

You have no evidence that he was either deranged (ie - any more deranged than anyone else who commits a murder) or a psychopath.

Fred99

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#2201775 19-Mar-2019 15:24

shk292:

Rikkitic:

People keep coming up with this fake equivalence argument. Vehicles are many, many, many times more useful for more things than firearms are, but they are already being restricted to make it harder for terrorists. Places where you used to be able to drive now have barriers around them. This will increase. If the danger from terrorist drivers increases, it will increase more, despite the inconvenience this causes. There is no fundamental difference in this regard between cars and guns or anything else that can be abused to sow terror.

It's not a "fake" equivalence - it's very real and if the fix is ugly concrete blocks all around our public spaces then it's truly a sad time. You can't escape the fact that there are many ways to commit mass murder (how many did Harold Shipman kill with syringes?). Restricting the possession of semi-automatic weapons solely to criminals remains in my opinion a really bad way to reduce terrorism, deciding to do it within 48 hours of a terrorist attack is even less sensible.

It would be more effective to toughen up the storage regulations and to enforce these more consistently

It absolutely is false equivalence, and that last sentence of yours I've highlighted is totally absurd under the circumstances. It would have most likely made no difference at all let alone prevented the horrific mass-murder of innocent people in Otautahi.

Fred99

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#2201778 19-Mar-2019 15:29

Varkk:

Rikkitic:

Is it possible, or even easy, to modify the kinds of semi-automatic weapons available here to operate as full automatics (like the 'bump stock' add-ons used in the USA?).

Depends on the model. Apparently some Semis are modified versions of a fully automatic weapon. With these it can be a simple modification to revert to full auto, remove a pin from the trigger mechanism is one example a gun club member at work mentioned. Others you can add some bits or construct a new assembly which allows full auto operation. Although they require access to the right tools. Not impossible but often unlikely for the type of person who carries out attacks.

As I posted above, with the type of MSSA that was actually used, anybody with access to a 3d printer could have made their own bump stock, no specialist skills required.

I can think of several good reasons why the perpetrator didn't - and lack of easy access to a bump stock probably isn't one of them.

But it's one more reason to ensure that all of these weapons are removed from circulation with great urgency.

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shk292

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#2201794 19-Mar-2019 15:46

Fred99:

It absolutely is false equivalence, and that last sentence of yours I've highlighted is totally absurd under the circumstances. It would have most likely made no difference at all let alone prevented the horrific mass-murder of innocent people in Otautahi.

Totally disagree on the equivalence or otherwise but a "yes it is, no it isn't" argument is no fun for anyone

The (lack of) safe storage of firearms seems to be the reason why a register is being proposed, and also seems to be the reason why it's proposed that semi-autos shouldn't be owned by suitable people. Ie, suitable people have them but then they get burgled and fall into the wrong hands. I don't see why that's absurd; I know the kind of storage arrangements that are legal now, and I know that I could defeat many of them with a claw hammer within 30 seconds. So surely, toughening up on this would be sensible?

If the only argument for doing anything is whether it would have "prevented the horrific mass-murder of innocent people in" Christchurch, then it's absurd to prevent a responsible person from owning a semi-auto firearm. We need to toughen up on who can own firearms, and how they are looked after.

Fred99

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#2201816 19-Mar-2019 16:00

shk292:

Totally disagree on the equivalence or otherwise but a "yes it is, no it isn't" argument is no fun for anyone

Then we're finished in this conversation. When it's been pointed out by several people in many posts in this thread and others what a false equivalence argument is, and exactly why you're arguing one, and you double down then try to frame it with a BS statement like that, I'm done arguing with you.

Ge0rge

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#2201819 19-Mar-2019 16:03

Fred99:
As I posted above, with the type of MSSA that was actually used, anybody with access to a 3d printer could have made their own bump stock, no specialist skills required.

I can think of several good reasons why the perpetrator didn't - and lack of easy access to a bump stock probably isn't one of them.

And as I posted above, it is extremely unlikely to work.

But hey, let's not allow realities to cloud your theoretical argument here ;)

Fred99

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#2201849 19-Mar-2019 16:26

Ge0rge:
Fred99:

As I posted above, with the type of MSSA that was actually used, anybody with access to a 3d printer could have made their own bump stock, no specialist skills required.

I can think of several good reasons why the perpetrator didn't - and lack of easy access to a bump stock probably isn't one of them.

And as I posted above, it is extremely unlikely to work.

But hey, let's not allow realities to cloud your theoretical argument here ;)

As I said I can think of many reasons why he didn't. Finding a place where you could test what you made and train without drawing attention to yourself is one.

According to articles I've read and won't link to :

Although the type of 3D printer is not specified, the bump fire stock in the video appears to have been printed on a material extrusion machine (which some people call a fused deposition modeling, or FDM, machine). This is the most basic and least expensive type of 3D printer, starting at a few hundred dollars. A bump fire stock can be 3D printed in cheap plastic and have no moving parts.

I'll defer to your expertise on 3d printing and durability, but videos of people firing with what they claim to be home 3d printed bump stocks are plentiful. (Thanks again google/youtube for abandoning your "don't be evil" motto)

Ge0rge

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#2201878 19-Mar-2019 17:13

Fred99:
As I said I can think of many reasons why he didn't. Finding a place where you could test what you made and train without drawing attention to yourself is one.

Absolutely - as well as technical considerations around accuracy and ammunition consumption which I'm not really sure need to be elaborated on.

Fred99
According to articles I've read and won't link to :

I think there is some crossover here on the behalf of the author. They are correct in that FDM is the most basic and cheapest and some of the stocks I have seen printed online will have come from one of those machines. The easiest comparison I can make would be someone saying Lance Armstrong won the tour of France on a road bicycle, the cheapest of which start at around a few hundred dollars. While the printed stock may have been FDM, I'll bet there were a few more zeros after the dollar sign!

Fred99
I'll defer to your expertise on 3d printing and durability, but videos of people firing with what they claim to be home 3d printed bump stocks are plentiful.(Thanks again google/youtube for abandoning your "don't be evil" motto)

Agreed, there certainly are a enough videos to lend credence to the idea it can be done. I'm am ever hopeful that a combination of both our suggestions will negate the day ever coming that one is used to commit a crime, and that anyone stupid enough to try finds out the hard way why manufacturers don't print the stocks they sell.

shk292

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#2201939 19-Mar-2019 19:08

Fred99:

Then we're finished in this conversation. When it's been pointed out by several people in many posts in this thread and others what a false equivalence argument is, and exactly why you're arguing one, and you double down then try to frame it with a BS statement like that, I'm done arguing with you.

Well that's a relief, but just for future reference I'm as entitled to an opinion as you or anyone else, and just because you and a few other like minded people believe something, that doesn't make it an incontrovertible truth. Just your opinion

tdgeek

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#2201968 19-Mar-2019 19:42

Fred99:

shk292:

Totally disagree on the equivalence or otherwise but a "yes it is, no it isn't" argument is no fun for anyone

Then we're finished in this conversation. When it's been pointed out by several people in many posts in this thread and others what a false equivalence argument is, and exactly why you're arguing one, and you double down then try to frame it with a BS statement like that, I'm done arguing with you.

Its sad that its got to this. He is military. You have a wealth of knowledge. i do too in some respects here. A small amount. And what I see now is you dont was to know me. You disagree with him, he is military. But we are all on the same side. While I dont want to bring up Tipple, what he said was right, even through he was probably 70/30 being PR. We are being divided.

Re the effectiveness of banning semis. I feel its not effective, although I support it. Its been decreed by some that this HAS to happen. The evidence is that it doesnt work. Why cant we discuss this without throwing our toys? I have no issue being wrong. Happy to be. Its a REAL topic now, not the usual forum argue issue.

GV27

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#2201974 19-Mar-2019 19:57

tdgeek:

Re the effectiveness of banning semis. I feel its not effective, although I support it. Its been decreed by some that this HAS to happen. The evidence is that it doesnt work. Why cant we discuss this without throwing our toys? I have no issue being wrong. Happy to be. Its a REAL topic now, not the usual forum argue issue.

At this stage, I think want to see them try just in case it does work. If it does, fantastic. If it doesn't, then it doesn't. Surely we owe it to the victims to at least try.

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