The politicisation of NZ's covid response

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Forums › Politics › The politicisation of NZ's covid response

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#2864966 10-Feb-2022 18:41

rhy7s: You have presented a number of misrepresentations in the examples given. Artificially collapsing evolving shades of grey into binary dichotomies. I apologise if it isn't, but this doesn't read as having been written in good faith.

It was written in good faith, but it can be difficult to concisely articulate some things in a post. Which portions do you feel are misrepresentations?

I conceded that much of what I called “unintended misinformation” by the Government and media was a result of a changing situation, and based on what they thought was correct at the time.

My point was that, regardless of intent, we were told things that turned out to be untrue. And that because if this I could understand why many people would feel mistrust towards both the Government and the media.

Interesting you feel I’ve collapsed shades of grey into a binary, that’s exactly what I can be a bit outspoken against as I feel there is no middle ground allowed in any political discussion anymore - and there should be. I try to understand why people might feel or think the way the do, even if I disagree with them.

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#2864968 10-Feb-2022 18:47

Paul1977:
freitasm:
Absolutely not.

They have the right to protest, providing they don't block my right to come and go through the public street - the one they are blocking. So right there is an example of their rights trampling on my rights.

What about a pride parade that closes off streets? You can argue that a parade has the appropriate permits, but it’s still preventing your access to a public street. Is that “trampling” on your rights?

Would you feel the same way about an anti-racism protest that blocked a public street?

Give permits, I won't complain.

Paul1977

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#2864969 10-Feb-2022 18:52

freitasm: Give permits, I won't complain.

Fair enough.

gzt

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#2864975 10-Feb-2022 19:07

Paul1977: In general I don't have a lot of time for antivaxxers; but I do wonder how many of the protesters are true anti-vaxxers, just anti this vaccine, or just anti-mandate.

Most of the pictures I see of this event and others like it - very few are wearing masks. To some extent (a) that's not so bad at an outdoor event and (b) I have no idea what the windspeed in central WEL is this week - but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of this crowd did not give it a second thought. It's definitely not sensible.

The huge number of incidents related to even a simple indoor mask requirement support the view most of this group are against even minimal sensible precautions for no logical reason except some post on Facebook they can't even remember clearly.

MaxineN

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#2864978 10-Feb-2022 19:14

More importantly give notice and actually say where you're going to block and if people need to get through then actually allow a path or a detour? Doesn't sound like that happened and those parliament protesters on the grounds right now have actually injured a few cops, defacated on the grounds and also have thrown crap at the public.

Paul1977:

What about a pride parade that closes off streets? You can argue that a parade has the appropriate permits, but it’s still preventing your access to a public street. Is that “trampling” on your rights?

Would you feel the same way about an anti-racism protest that blocked a public street?

I'm actually offended. The pride parade especially because those are organized to not prevent the public from walking down the streets they're on, they're also not idiots(like these parliament protesters are) and they actually do their absolute best to abide by the rules. They also have permits and are supported by councils. You also would have had notice.

As an LGBT individual. This actually hurts.

Ramblings from a mysterious lady who's into tech. Warning I may often create zingers.

Paul1977

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#2864985 10-Feb-2022 19:32

MaxineN:
More importantly give notice and actually say where you're going to block and if people need to get through then actually allow a path or a detour? Doesn't sound like that happened and those parliament protesters on the grounds right now have actually injured a few cops, defacated on the grounds and also have thrown crap at the public.

Paul1977:

What about a pride parade that closes off streets? You can argue that a parade has the appropriate permits, but it’s still preventing your access to a public street. Is that “trampling” on your rights?

Would you feel the same way about an anti-racism protest that blocked a public street?

I'm actually offended. The pride parade especially because those are organized to not prevent the public from walking down the streets they're on, they're also not idiots(like these parliament protesters are) and they actually do their absolute best to abide by the rules. They also have permits and are supported by councils. You also would have had notice.

As an LGBT individual. This actually hurts.

It wasn’t my intent to offend, I was just using it as a completely hypothetical example of something widely accepted but that also might potentially block a public street. I could have substituted any other parade in my example.

The only point I was trying to make was that people are far more tolerant about things they agree with.

EDIT: For clarity. I also don’t condone or defend any violence or harassment that has been perpetrated by the protesters.

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#2864990 10-Feb-2022 19:41

invisibleman18: You probably need some sort of permission to set up Portaloos at the main bus terminal too, so don't allow it. Let them starve and piss and shit themselves. If they want food or to go to the toilet they'll have to leave. If they want to go to the toilet in public on Parliament grounds, there's something else to arrest and charge them with. Have their cars been ticketed or towed for being parked in the middle of main roads? I'm sure mine would be if I decided to park there. If you say it's a protest are you just allowed to do whatever you want?

It's better to provide extra toilets compared to overloading public toilets and facilities of nearby businesses. With regard to the vehicles imo it's appropriate there is a little bit of tolerance in relation to the protest. However, I suspect you'll find some tickets have been issued and there will be more if there are specific issues.

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rhy7s

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#2864996 10-Feb-2022 19:57

Paul1977:

It was written in good faith, but it can be difficult to concisely articulate some things in a post. Which portions do you feel are misrepresentations?

I conceded that much of what I called “unintended misinformation” by the Government and media was a result of a changing situation, and based on what they thought was correct at the time.

My point was that, regardless of intent, we were told things that turned out to be untrue. And that because if this I could understand why many people would feel mistrust towards both the Government and the media.

Interesting you feel I’ve collapsed shades of grey into a binary, that’s exactly what I can be a bit outspoken against as I feel there is no middle ground allowed in any political discussion anymore - and there should be. I try to understand why people might feel or think the way the do, even if I disagree with them.

Thanks for your elaboration, items in bold below I feel are misrepresentations. I am aware that some people think that things changing due to the influence of emerging evidence is a reason for mistrust, instead seeking a stubborn surety, I don't know what would change that heuristic. "Middle ground" has been a bit polluted on issues where the middle ground has been pulled away from its association with balance by fairly extreme positions.

Masks do nothing, masks are required, cloth masks are fine, cloth masks are no good, once we have a vaccine the pandemic will end.

I understand things change, and not everything about Covid was known at the time many of those things were said - but I can also understand peoples frustrations and feeling like they've been lied to.

The understanding that things change seems to run counter to the sense of a aggrievement that follows below.

I've done everything I was meant to, double-vaxxed and boosted, in a country where we have 93% double-vaxxed. But if I'm a close contact I have to isolate the same as if I was unvaccinated.

Many of the protesters are doubtless idiot antivaxxers, but some are probably just exercising their right to question the Governments policies.

Your impression is the protesters are "Just asking questions"?

Paul1977

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#2865005 10-Feb-2022 20:27

rhy7s:

Paul1977:

Masks do nothing, masks are required, cloth masks are fine, cloth masks are no good, once we have a vaccine the pandemic will end.

I understand things change, and not everything about Covid was known at the time many of those things were said - but I can also understand peoples frustrations and feeling like they've been lied to.

Perhaps they never went as far as to say "masks do nothing", but we were certainly initially told that they weren't required for anyone but healthcare workers. Then they were, but we were told cloth masks were ok, now recently were told cloths mask were nowhere near as good. I may not have it completely correct, but we have certainly been told many differing things about masks over the past 2 years. And it was certainly implied, if not outright said, that high vaccination rates would return life to normal - that hasn't happened.

rhy7s: The understanding that things change seems to run counter to the sense of a aggrievement that follows below.

I've done everything I was meant to, double-vaxxed and boosted, in a country where we have 93% double-vaxxed. But if I'm a close contact I have to isolate the same as if I was unvaccinated.

Many of the protesters are doubtless idiot antivaxxers, but some are probably just exercising their right to question the Governments policies.

Your impression is the protesters are "Just asking questions"?

I'm not feeling personally aggrieved, I'm playing Devil's advocate. I'm pointing out that the outcome we expected (and I think were lead to believe) hasn't happened. Of course the Government can't predict the future, but I can understand why many have lost faith in what they're told.

Certainly many of the protesters aren't "just asking questions", but I suspect a lot are there because they simply don't agree with the policies and feel like they aren't being heard any other way. What the ratio between the "crazies" and the "normies" is in the group I have no idea. The problem is that ALL of their concerns get dismissed as "fringe" or "crazy" because of the behavior of the worst of them.

JayADee

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#2865018 10-Feb-2022 20:54

I think the police retreated to let the weather finish it. Good move.

quickymart

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#2865029 10-Feb-2022 21:11

DjShadow:

I just about choked on my dinner when One News interviewed a protester saying her husband got the booster today and she is going to divorce him for doing that

Smart man. Sounds like he might have dodged a (long-term) bullet. She sounds pathetic.

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#2865031 10-Feb-2022 21:13

@Paul1977 the government words changed as we found out more about the conditions. It changed when Delta came around and again with Omicron.

Only stupid would not change directions when new information came to light.

Rikkitic

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#2865047 10-Feb-2022 21:15

Paul1977:

I'm not feeling personally aggrieved, I'm playing Devil's advocate. I'm pointing out that the outcome we expected (and I think were lead to believe) hasn't happened. Of course the Government can't predict the future, but I can understand why many have lost faith in what they're told.

Certainly many of the protesters aren't "just asking questions", but I suspect a lot are there because they simply don't agree with the policies and feel like they aren't being heard any other way. What the ratio between the "crazies" and the "normies" is in the group I have no idea. The problem is that ALL of their concerns get dismissed as "fringe" or "crazy" because of the behavior of the worst of them.

I think you are getting confused about some things. Established medical procedures, like setting bones and preventing polio, are based on long experience. There is no doubt about how these things are best treated.

Covid was a new thing that suddenly emerged. There was no established procedure for treating it.

Science is based on trial and error. You make an observation, develop an hypothesis, test it in practice, modify it depending on the result. Those who are determined to see a government conspiracy seize on every change of medical insight as ‘proof’ that it is all a lie. What they don’t understand is that such changes of direction are proof that scientific method is working. As more information is gleaned about how the virus works, the advice on how best to deal with it is continuously modified. There is nothing wrong with this and no-one is to blame for ignorant people leaping to dumb conclusions.

If non-crazy protestors don’t want to have their legitimate concerns ignored, they should watch the company they keep.

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MaxineN

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#2865066 10-Feb-2022 21:33

Paul1977:
It wasn’t my intent to offend, I was just using it as a completely hypothetical example of something widely accepted but that also might potentially block a public street. I could have substituted any other parade in my example.

The only point I was trying to make was that people are far more tolerant about things they agree with.

EDIT: For clarity. I also don’t condone or defend any violence or harassment that has been perpetrated by the protesters.

There are lots of reasons for why a street might be blocked beyond protesting. The solution is to deal with it and go around, glad you don't defend the violence or harassment but haven't really apologized(it wasn't just the pride example you lumped anti racism protests in there for some reason) and if they have permits then it's fair game. This isn't what's happening here and the parliament protests we've been seeing the last few days are idiots and selfish pricks who have no care and do not want a debate. They're going to get themselves arrested(at least 120 of them have) and we're just going to go ahead with our lives without them. They're a very small group compared to the team of 5 million who made a damn good effort to keep safe and protect ourselves. We're not too far tolerant. We just wanna get on with life.

Ramblings from a mysterious lady who's into tech. Warning I may often create zingers.

Paul1977

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#2865068 10-Feb-2022 21:42

@freitism @ Rikkitic

No confusion.

I’m not suggesting the Government should have been able to predict the future, nor that they shouldn’t change their advice based on new evidence.

What I am trying to do encourage people to try to understand why people they disagree with might think the way they do, instead of just labelling them all as lunatics (which, in fairness, some of them are). Understanding someone else’s point of view doesn’t mean that you agree with it.

I’ve watched and read a lot of opinion pieces right across the spectrum and I haven’t seen any that I completely agree with, but there are very few that I completely disagree with. Even the ones I disagree with the most tend to have one or two nuggets in there that worth thinking about.

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