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Fred99

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#289737 26-Sep-2021 13:26
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I've started this thread to allow people who think politicisation of NZ's covid response is worth having a discussion about on GZ, and rather than shilling political views in a "Health and Fitness" forum, where it's counterproductive to rational discussion about pandemic control, it'd be really good if you post here instead.


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Fred99

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  #2784452 26-Sep-2021 13:55
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It's going to be interesting to see how the "conservatives" try to sell the message that "we can't afford" to maintain a retirement / national super age at 65, if life expectancy drops similarly to how it's dropped in countries where the pandemic has been allowed to run its course.


 
 
 

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freitasm
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  #2784482 26-Sep-2021 14:33
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What kind of bullshit is this? Covid 19 Delta outbreak: Sir John Key - 5 ideas to transform our approach - NZ Herald

 

 

Some people might like to continue the North Korean option. I am not one of them. Public health experts and politicians have done a good job of making the public fearful, and therefore willing to accept multiple restrictions on their civil liberties which are disproportionate to the risk of them contracting Covid.

 

 

Do people that support right-leaning policies really believe this drivel? Do people supporting National really believe we are at the same level as North Korea?

 

Do you folks supporting National really believe that New Zealand would have no problems with a number of deaths or health system overload if borders were open, for the benefit of a few?





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  #2784536 26-Sep-2021 14:48
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freitasm:

 

What kind of bullshit is this? Covid 19 Delta outbreak: Sir John Key - 5 ideas to transform our approach - NZ Herald

 

 

Some people might like to continue the North Korean option. I am not one of them. Public health experts and politicians have done a good job of making the public fearful, and therefore willing to accept multiple restrictions on their civil liberties which are disproportionate to the risk of them contracting Covid.

 

 

Do people that support right-leaning policies really believe this drivel? Do people supporting National really believe we are at the same level as North Korea?

 

Do you folks supporting National really believe that New Zealand would have no problems with a number of deaths or health system overload if borders were open, for the benefit of a few?

 

 

I think you'll find t's a figure of speech - often used to illustrate a point and to make rhetoric more interesting.  Do you think that every time people "take the nuclear option", they actually use a thermonuclear device?




ezbee
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  #2784538 26-Sep-2021 14:54
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I thought the North Korean option was Anti-Aircraft guns ?


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  #2784554 26-Sep-2021 15:09
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Fred99: The politicisation of NZ's covid response

NZ and any other democratic country covid response will inevitably depend on politics. Covid response will be always be a political thing for that reason.

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  #2784555 26-Sep-2021 15:11
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shk292:

 

freitasm:

 

Do people that support right-leaning policies really believe this drivel? Do people supporting National really believe we are at the same level as North Korea?

 

Do you folks supporting National really believe that New Zealand would have no problems with a number of deaths or health system overload if borders were open, for the benefit of a few?

 

 

I think you'll find t's a figure of speech - often used to illustrate a point and to make rhetoric more interesting.  Do you think that every time people "take the nuclear option", they actually use a thermonuclear device?

 

 

I think the figure of speech here is over-extended. There is a huge difference between what we do in New Zealand and the operation in North Korea. For all we know they still block all the information, tell no one about cases and have no investments in vaccine. 

 

But yes, if you think we live in a North Korean-style state, go for it. 





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tdgeek
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  #2784639 26-Sep-2021 18:53
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Its a sad day when health over economics becomes a political issue. Many have and are criticising our approach. Yet deaths were largely due to issues on some aged care centres, not the general demographic. Economy has done fine. Will NZ be a hermit nation for years? No, as we ALL know. Its fine (and accepted in this thread) to be politically aligned. But when the overall measures are discarded as "Labour is awesome it must be good" or National is awesome "they must be right" is a shocker.

 

The bottom line is 

 

1. How has deaths been per captita?

 

2. Has the health system been overwhelmed?

 

3.Has the economy reached a depression?

 

The hermit nation as done its job, we won't be hermits forever, not till the vaccine rollout is complete. Look at others that did the rollout at the same time as dropping restrictions. 




ezbee
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  #2785685 28-Sep-2021 15:48
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Pfizer rebuts John Key’s vaccine payment claim

 

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pfizer-rebuts-john-keys-vaccine-payment-claim

 

Maybe if you have a large outbreak like Israel, share patent data, and pay a premium, but that was not our situation.

Edit original newsroom link.


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  #2786117 29-Sep-2021 10:45
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Nationals new plan for Covid is in short, 70% eligible vaccines in NZ, 12+, and lockdowns end, we move to aggressive suppression. At 85% vaccinated travellers can arrive from low risk locations like Brisbane (who now have new cases) and have no isolation, higher risk countries are 7 day self isolation.

 

Good they put their cards on the table. 70% is a few tads low in my opinion. Im not sure how many low risk locations there are these days. Tuvalu? Townsville? Most countries seem to be high risk.

 

But its an alternative.


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  #2786120 29-Sep-2021 10:51
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I see the "hermit kingdom" comment in the same light as "fortress New Zealand" which is another term we see bandied about.  In reality we are neither but they are both hyperbolic statements used by various people to make a point.

 

Focussing on the 'hermit kingdom" comment is to miss the point completely about what John Key said.

 

From my perspective he said two things

 

     

  1. We need a clear plan from the government
  2. The government (us taxpayers) cannot afford to keep borrowing 1 billion a week.

 

 

 

As it is now we are getting a drip fed plan with no idea where/what the end game is. Sure things change and the plan may need to change, but people want and need some idea what the pathway will look like. There needs to be goal to aim for and a defined pathway to get there. If there's a need to change then by all means do so.

 

No one runs a business making things up as they go along. They have a plan which they adapt as necessary. John Key gave some ideas on how he saw us moving forward. Whether or not you agree with his ideas at least you know his thinking. Right now it feels to me that this government is either to scared to outline their plan in case they need to make changes or they are making it up as they go along. It's only been in the past few weeks that we've been told that 90% vaccination rate was part of the plan.

 

I am concerned about the future post Covid. John Key made a very sobering comment about the Covid debt. Even if you don't like his politics at least listen to his advice as coming from a person with some expertise in finance. The money that's being spent on the Covid pandemic has to be paid back at some point. That's either with higher taxes or reduced government spending.

 

If you look at the condition of many of our main highways I'd say that reduction on spending has already started. What other areas will be affected?

 

Health, will you still have access to prompt cancer treatment in the public health system in the future? The fact that we have done diddly squat to improve our ICU facilities when we should be tells me that the government doesn't have the money or the appetite to spend money to spend on the health system now. It's a pretty good bet it won't get better in the future if the government haven't done anything at a time when it should have been a high priority. 

 

Education, what may parents have to pay for in the future to ensure a good standard of education for their children. 

 

Those of us that can afford the likes of private health insurance will be OK. Once again the people that really bear the brunt are those who are struggling now.





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  #2786121 29-Sep-2021 10:51
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Delusional people believe in self-isolation.





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  #2786180 29-Sep-2021 11:01
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Technofreak:

 

 

 

As it is now we are getting a drip fed plan with no idea where/what the end game is. Sure things change and the plan may need to change, but people want and need some idea what the pathway will look like. There needs to be goal to aim for and a defined pathway to get there. If there's a need to change then by all means do so.

 

No one runs a business making things up as they go along. They have a plan which they adapt as necessary. John Key gave some ideas on how he saw us moving forward. Whether or not you agree with his ideas at least you know his thinking. Right now it feels to me that this government is either to scared to outline their plan in case they need to make changes or they are making it up as they go along. It's only been in the past few weeks that we've been told that 90% vaccination rate was part of the plan.

 

 

 

 

Dont disagree but I cant see how anyone can make a plan when Covid Delta is so liquid. If you did make a plan, then people will be fixated on the "date" Aggravated if it blows out. Failure of the Govt/MoH, even though any plan needs compliance, which as we have seen is not that robust anymore. 

 

AFAIK the plan is an open Summer. Vaccinations at a high level will replace lockdowns. Summer is a date. Vaccination rollout was due by December IIRC. So there is a plan and rough time period. 


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  #2786203 29-Sep-2021 11:34
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Technofreak:

 

Focussing on the 'hermit kingdom" comment is to miss the point completely about what John Key said.

 

 

What point might that be? Key also said this:

 

"The only urgency we've seen for months is an enthusiasm to lock down our country, lock up our people and lock out our citizens who are overseas."

 

"Some people might like to continue the North Korean option." 

 

"Public health experts and politicians have done a good job of making the public fearful..."

 

"For those who say it's too hard, or too risky I ask this: one day, when the largest part of the Minister of Finance's Budget pays only the interest on the debt we are racking up now, and you can't have the latest cancer drugs, or more police, because New Zealand can't afford them, what will you think?"

 

 

 

Hyperbolic, much? If you have a valid argument, you don't need to rely on overwrought bombast to manipulate the masses. The first phrase quoted is just hysterical nonsense exaggeration that has no place in a serious discussion. The second is simply stupid. Nothing in government policy comes even close to the North Korean way of doing things, whatever that is. Key is wetting himself with this kind of idiot statement, which he then repeats. His accusation of the authorities manipulating people with fear tactics is rich when he immediately goes on to do precisely the same, as the last quote amply illustrates. Let's just scare the hell out of everyone by telling them they won't be able to afford cancer drugs or police. This kind of crap would be irresponsible coming from anyone with a public voice. Coming from a former Prime Minister, it is inexcusable.

 

Technofreak:

 

If you look at the condition of many of our main highways I'd say that reduction on spending has already started. What other areas will be affected?

 

 

Yeah, right. The National road obsession. 

 

 

 

 





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Technofreak
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  #2786215 29-Sep-2021 12:19
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You are welcome to your opinion if you think pointing out the consequences of borrowing a lot of money is scare tactics. I see it as making people aware of the realities of life. Those realities may be frightening to some people to other people they are just a part of life. Like everything we do in life there are consequences and there are compromises to be made.

 

If you're not aware of the state of many roads you probably don't venture very far from home. SH 5 between Taupo and Napier is a very good example. If you don't see it as a problem then you probably don't realise how much commerce and the goods you buy in the the supermarket and elsewhere travel over these roads.





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Rikkitic
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  #2786228 29-Sep-2021 12:52
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Technofreak:

 

You are welcome to your opinion if you think pointing out the consequences of borrowing a lot of money is scare tactics. I see it as making people aware of the realities of life. Those realities may be frightening to some people to other people they are just a part of life. Like everything we do in life there are consequences and there are compromises to be made.

 

If you're not aware of the state of many roads you probably don't venture very far from home. SH 5 between Taupo and Napier is a very good example. If you don't see it as a problem then you probably don't realise how much commerce and the goods you buy in the the supermarket and elsewhere travel over these roads.

 

 

I don't disagree with making people aware of the possible consequences of government actions. What I disagree with is Key's over the top hysterical abuse of unjustified emotional imagery to try to stampede public opinion in his chosen direction. He should just make his points and let people make their own choices as to whether to be frightened by them.

 

Roads with holes in them are always a problem, but National seems to be particularly obsessed with endlessly building bigger and better ones. Roads are not the solution to every problem in the country. 

 

 





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