2024 US Presidential election thread

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#3256200 4-Jul-2024 11:18

Rikkitic:

I never mentioned 6 January. My concern is based on overall long-term behaviour. If you seriously think there is no significant difference between Trump and Biden, or the Democrats and the Republicans, then I can't help you.

I'm not asking for your help, nor would I be arrogant enough to offer any to anyone else that didn't agree with what I have posted.

I've been posting on here consistently from 2016 that Trump is unfit to be president, I simply don't accept or agree with whitewashing anything the Democrats do just because they 'aren't Trump'.

SJB

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#3256205 4-Jul-2024 11:31

Who knows where the BBC gets these people from but the comments are relentlessly negative for Biden.

'Something needs to happen': Democratic voters on replacing Biden - BBC News

marmel

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#3256206 4-Jul-2024 11:40

SJB:

Who knows where the BBC gets these people from but the comments are relentlessly negative for Biden.

'Something needs to happen': Democratic voters on replacing Biden - BBC News

It's hard to know what the truth is, certainly there are some in the Democrat party that have now openly expressed concerns and thoughts that Biden should step aside. I'm not convinced with some of the reporting though, Biden has been in cognitive decline for several years, there are plenty of video's showing him appearing confused and having 'senior' moments.

If there was a genuine desire to have him replaced it would have been so much easier for the party to do so before the electoral college process began.

Paul1977

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#3256210 4-Jul-2024 11:48

gzt:
Paul1977: But like in 2020, and 2016, they are votes AGAINST Trump rather than votes FOR the Democratic candidate. How is it that they haven't had a candidate win the nomination since 2012 (Obama) that people actually want to vote FOR?

I don't think so at all. Biden offers policies that are objectively better for the average American family and worker. Trump offers almost nothing substantive. On Obamacare for example Trump says "replace it with something better" like he said last time. Biden will continue to expand it. Most of Trump's policy is blame migrants "poisoning the blood of our country" and similar backwards looking stuff.

You can argue that the Democratic party offers better policies, but they can do that with a better candidate than Biden. So, I'll concede that some people will be voting FOR the Democratic party - but these are votes IN SPITE of Biden, not for him.

johno1234

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#3256217 4-Jul-2024 12:04

Rikkitic:
marmel:

Trying to claim Trump had any chance of overthrowing the democratic process by force is farcical, given the size of the US army of other armed government agencies, he would have had to have their full support and there hasn't been a single claim ever that anything even remotely like that was even a possibility.

You don't need to overthrow by force if you have enough judges, legislators and bureaucratic toadies on your side. The threat presented by Trump is real, and the biggest part of it is pretending it doesn't exist!

He doesn’t.

wellygary

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#3256223 4-Jul-2024 12:27

marmel:

If there was a genuine desire to have him replaced it would have been so much easier for the party to do so before the electoral college process began.

Political leaders in the US ( and other places) don;t get their by chance, and once you reach the top they spend huge amounts of time and effort to remove source of future competition.

Biden will only go on Biden's terms....

NZ is the same,

When Helen Clark was the leader of the Labour party, there were absolute devotion, and any discussion of alternate leadership was ruthlessly put down...

marmel

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#3256225 4-Jul-2024 12:37

wellygary:

marmel:

If there was a genuine desire to have him replaced it would have been so much easier for the party to do so before the electoral college process began.

Political leaders in the US ( and other places) don;t get their by chance, and once you reach the top they spend huge amounts of time and effort to remove source of future competition.

Biden will only go on Biden's terms....

NZ is the same,

When Helen Clark was the leader of the Labour party, there were absolute devotion, and any discussion of alternate leadership was ruthlessly put down...

I'm not sure a direct comparison between NZ and USA political leaders is that relevant though. A PM in New Zealand has far less actual power than a US president. But I agree 100% with the issues in US politics and the money involved.

Clark was also quite popular amongst the population, Labour enjoyed a buoyant economy during the Clark years and I think from memory it's one of the last era's where we actually paid down national debt.

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

gzt

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#3256235 4-Jul-2024 13:34

marmel: If we are talking about threats to democracy and having 'judges and others onside', from a law enforcement/justice perspective one of my biggest red flags from the last 5-6 years in the US is a US government agency obtaining surveillance warrants based in part on evidence from an individual that was funded by the democrats. Evidence that turned about to be BS.

I'm not sure what that one was. Can you provide a link or reminder cheers.

wellygary

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#3256236 4-Jul-2024 13:35

marmel:

I'm not sure a direct comparison between NZ and USA political leaders is that relevant though. A PM in New Zealand has far less actual power than a US president. But I agree 100% with the issues in US politics and the money involved.

The issue is not around the legislative power of the positions,

Its to do with how leaders operate within their own parties, and how they manage factional rivalry and keep from being toppled from within (as opposed to the actions of the voters)

neb

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#3256252 4-Jul-2024 14:43

SJB: If either of those is controlled by the party opposing the President then very little new legislation will be passed for the next 4 years irrespective of who is President.

However, Biden will play by the rules and waffle ineffectively (well, he'll do that in any case), while Trump will just issue presidential decrees to get what he wants. And since it's all official acts there'll be no repercussions.

marmel

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#3256254 4-Jul-2024 14:50

gzt:
marmel: If we are talking about threats to democracy and having 'judges and others onside', from a law enforcement/justice perspective one of my biggest red flags from the last 5-6 years in the US is a US government agency obtaining surveillance warrants based in part on evidence from an individual that was funded by the democrats. Evidence that turned about to be BS.

I'm not sure what that one was. Can you provide a link or reminder cheers.

Yeah for sure, here is a good place to start but I'm fairly confident you would already know how to use Google:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/two-4-warrants-letting-fbi-spy-ex-trump-aide-carter-n1121406

Also as a bit of backstory as to why I raise this as a real concern, I've worked in the justice system in New Zealand for over 20 years, firstly in law enforcement and now in the justice sector. I deal with legislation and search warrants daily, one thing I've have always been very passionate about is the separation between Police/Government/Judiciary in NZ. Blurring of those lines is what you should be concerned about with regards to a threat to democracy, not some highly visible rednecks turning up to a protest.

wellygary

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#3256268 4-Jul-2024 15:11

SJB:

As well as the Presidential election on November 5th all the 435 seats in the House of Representatives and 34 of the 100 Senate seats are up for grabs.

If either of those is controlled by the party opposing the President then very little new legislation will be passed for the next 4 years irrespective of who is President.

Rs look like they will take the Senate .... (Ds essentially have a 1 vote majority now)

Rs look to retain the House, so if Trump won its all on baby.....

That's partly why Dems are freaking out so much over Biden at the moment....

marmel

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#3256269 4-Jul-2024 15:17

gzt:
marmel: If we are talking about threats to democracy and having 'judges and others onside', from a law enforcement/justice perspective one of my biggest red flags from the last 5-6 years in the US is a US government agency obtaining surveillance warrants based in part on evidence from an individual that was funded by the democrats. Evidence that turned about to be BS.

I'm not sure what that one was. Can you provide a link or reminder cheers.

The other thing to consider with this is how the information eventually came out that some dodgy processes had occurred. Had Clinton won in 2016 none of it would have ever become public knowledge. That in itself shows just how corrupt the US political and justice systems are and just how much the governing party of the day can lean on various agencies to get the outcomes they want.

We also saw another issue prior to the last election with the 'Hunter Biden' laptop story being buried by most of the mainstream press and former government employees including former ranking members of the CIA signing up to 'the letter' which claimed it was likely a Russian misinformation operation. Things are so bizarre that some of those signatories are still claiming that today, despite the US government now presenting that laptop as evidence against Hunter in his recent trial.

These are just two examples of what I would believe is the real threat to democracy and they both happen to shine a poor light on Democrats however I have no doubt the Republicans are just as dirty, if not more so. My point being looking at the 6th Jan as any kind of example of democracy being under threat really pales in comparison to what is else is actually going on. And yes, I acknowledge you didn't specifically mention 6/1...

gzt

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#3256310 4-Jul-2024 18:32

marmel: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/two-4-warrants-letting-fbi-spy-ex-trump-aide-carter-n1121406

I will try google later. The article is inconclusive:

It was not clear from Boasberg's own court order which two FISA orders were deemed invalid, but it's likely they were the final two renewals. According to the inspector general's report, the FBI had reason by then to doubt the British spy's information, and it had learned that Page had been cooperating with the CIA.

The article more or less states the first two warrants were accurate and valid when applied for. The review found there was no assessment of new information gained since then prior to applying for renewal representing the final two warrants.

marmel

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#3256314 4-Jul-2024 18:44

gzt:
marmel: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/two-4-warrants-letting-fbi-spy-ex-trump-aide-carter-n1121406

I will try google later. The article is inconclusive:

It was not clear from Boasberg's own court order which two FISA orders were deemed invalid, but it's likely they were the final two renewals. According to the inspector general's report, the FBI had reason by then to doubt the British spy's information, and it had learned that Page had been cooperating with the CIA.

The article more or less states the first two warrants were accurate and valid when applied for. The review found there was no assessment of new information gained since then prior to applying for renewal representing the final two warrants.

This is also a good read regarding the 'Steele dossier' and the involvment of democrats in the wider investigation. Ironically this article is from CNN who back then were reporting this stuff as gospel daily.

The overall investigation was bigger than just this dossier but it gives a good insight into how uncomfortably close the government and various agencies are in the US.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/18/politics/steele-dossier-reckoning/index.html

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