Gun Control discussion

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MikeB4
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#1877352 4-Oct-2017 15:58

networkn:

I wasn't limiting the discussion to NZ. I was discussing what I think every gun owners requirements should be regardless of where they live. Mentally ill is a generic term, it would require consultation and some illnesses may be excluded from it potentially.

If you are a sports person, then you should already be meeting 99% of those suggestions. The police should be the most well-armed people in New Zealand.

I feel this should read The Police should be the most appropriately armed people in New Zealand.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

networkn

Networkn
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#1877355 4-Oct-2017 16:08

MikeB4:

networkn:

I wasn't limiting the discussion to NZ. I was discussing what I think every gun owners requirements should be regardless of where they live. Mentally ill is a generic term, it would require consultation and some illnesses may be excluded from it potentially.

If you are a sports person, then you should already be meeting 99% of those suggestions. The police should be the most well-armed people in New Zealand.

I feel this should read The Police should be the most appropriately armed people in New Zealand.

A police officer should never face a perp who is better armed than they can be.

MikeAqua

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#1877356 4-Oct-2017 16:11

Our gun control laws are reasonably effective when enforced. but peopl still acquire firearms illegally (recent Northland shooting).

Hollow point projectiles are standard hunting projectiles in rim-fire rifles.

Soft or ballistic tip projectiles are standard hunting projectiles in centre fire rifles.

Solid projectiles are only really used recreationally for target shooting. For hunting they have less stopping power. They will often go through an animal without killing it instantly leading to a slow death.

There are heaps of places to legally and safely use firearms - rifle ranges, most farms, and a lot of conservation land.

I had no issue having firearms in the house with my kids. Rifles, bolts and ammo were stored in three different combination locked solid cabinets. Trigger locks on the shotgun and semis, keys for those in the bolt cabinet. Only I knew the combinations.

Mike

MikeB4

MikeB4
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#1877362 4-Oct-2017 16:17

Your statement is too open. There are circumstances where nothing is needed and wont escalate a situation. Likewise a Taser may be the most appropriate, another time a Glock or Bushmaster the most appropriate. The Military will always be better armed the police and that is appropriate. I believe the level of gun use by our police is in general OK however I do feel that night patrols should be armed, except Pub rounds. Sole highway and country patrols should be armed.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeAqua

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#1877366 4-Oct-2017 16:20

networkn:

A police officer should never face a perp who is better armed than they can be.

Define better armed?

Police have access to clubs, tasers, handguns, assault rifles and scoped-rifles. But only one will be optimal in a particular situation.

Unless they carry all of them they could be out-matched at any time.

I don't want to see police hurt or worse on duty and I'm all for them being appropriately armed. But there is no simple solution.

Mike

shk292

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#1877379 4-Oct-2017 17:04

I think NZ has a reasonable balance of laws in this area. Ownership is tightly controlled, as is the use of firearms.

Some of the suggestions on this thread are a little silly, like removing firing pins. Others seem more to increase hassle and deter ownership, like mandatory range attendance - a gun doesn't sudddenly become unsafe in 2 months, and few ranges have gun smiths who are qualified to inspect a firearm for safety.

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Pumpedd

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#1877443 4-Oct-2017 19:47

shk292:

I think NZ has a reasonable balance of laws in this area. Ownership is tightly controlled, as is the use of firearms.

Some of the suggestions on this thread are a little silly, like removing firing pins. Others seem more to increase hassle and deter ownership, like mandatory range attendance - a gun doesn't sudddenly become unsafe in 2 months, and few ranges have gun smiths who are qualified to inspect a firearm for safety.

If its not broke don't fix it.

There will always be fatal incidents in NZ with firearms, but we must remember just be legislating new laws, doesnt fix everything. Its a balance.

eg People wanted prohibitive taxes on ciggies so it was done, now we not only have a huge blackmarket, but shop keepers are the targets. Now we want new laws to protect shop keepers...and on and on it goes.

Lias

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#1877460 4-Oct-2017 20:25

Strongly disagree with every point except #2.

I'm a geek, a gamer, a dad, a Quic user, and an IT Professional. I have a full rack home lab, size 15 feet, an epic beard and Asperger's. I'm a bit of a Cypherpunk, who believes information wants to be free and the Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. If you use my Quic signup you can also use the code R570394EKGIZ8 for free setup. Opinions are my own and not the views of my employer.

kingdragonfly

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#1877461 4-Oct-2017 20:26

MikeAqua: Hollow point projectiles are standard hunting projectiles in rim-fire rifles.

Soft or ballistic tip projectiles are standard hunting projectiles in centre fire rifles.

Solid projectiles are only really used recreationally for target shooting. For hunting they have less stopping power. They will often go through an animal without killing it instantly leading to a slow death.

The problem with hollow-points is when people are shot with hollow-points, it's devastating.

The NATO and the US military doesn't use hollow-points, except in limited experiments, going back over 100 years.

I realize animals may suffer a slow death, but by the same token it means people don't die quite so fast from gunshot wounds.

My niece worked in the Las Vegas emergency room years ago, where gunshot wounds were common. She really hated hollow point rounds.

Lias

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#1877463 4-Oct-2017 20:29

kingdragonfly:

The NATO and the US military doesn't use hollow-points, except in limited experiments, going back over 100 years.

Only because of the Hague Convention.

Stan

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#1877469 4-Oct-2017 20:44

networkn:

I have long felt the approach to gun control should look like this:

1) No automatic weapons or extended clips allowed for sale. No hollowpoint or other types of non-standard ammunition.

As in semi automatics too? Strongly disagree

2) Gun Lockers are mandatory.

Agreed

3) Inspections can randomly occur, but minimum twice a year. Refusal to permit an officer to inspect weapons/lockers should result in confiscation and destruction of weapons and a 10 Year Ban from owning a gun. Failure during inspection same thing.

Strongly disagree

4) No-one with a criminal record should be allowed to purchase a gun.

Disagree however Replace "criminal record" with anything serious ie anything under current 3 strikes law and I could agree

5) Anyone with a mental illness should not be allowed to purchase a gun.

Disagree as you have not defined mental illness would that include ADHD while at school? Would that include anyone with minor anxiety or more serious cases.

6) No guns in a house with a person with a mental illness or Criminal record residing there.

Again no definition of mental illness or how bad the Criminal record would have to be so I disagree

7) Mandatory safety briefing twice a year.

Disagree most gun owners are not stupid

8) Minimum of 2 hours every 2 months in a gun range. (Ensures guns are in a safe workable condition for the safety of owners as well as many other benefits).

Strongly disagree

9) Signed annual declaration by owner of how many guns, what types and confirmation requirements have been met as per above.

Strongly disagree

Logistically a nightmare, I understand. Lots of "civil liberties" being trampled on, but then 500+ people had theirs taken from them too. Heavy handed I agree.

NZ gun laws are fine.

If you are thinking of putting these into law in the USA there would be an uprising against you it would be political suicide Americans like there guns and the above would go against the constitution.

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Geektastic

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#1877541 4-Oct-2017 23:36

New Zealand only recently decided to pass regulations making being a gang member an automatic disqualification criteria for a FAL...

The biggest oddity to me in the NZ system is the C endorsement. I have a C endorsement, as do a number of people I know. It stands for Collector and allows the holder to own just about anything - including machine guns - in full working order.

You're not allowed to actually shoot them though. So...the state regards you as a fit and proper person to own the machine gun and the ammo, but not fit and proper enough to put the two together on a range.

I find that rather lacking in logic, myself.

Pumpedd

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#1877638 5-Oct-2017 09:31

See....

Don't Even Think About It

and Tillerson called Trump a moron.....the whole Govt is full of morons.

MikeAqua

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#1877645 5-Oct-2017 09:39

kingdragonfly:
MikeAqua: Hollow point projectiles are standard hunting projectiles in rim-fire rifles.

Soft or ballistic tip projectiles are standard hunting projectiles in centre fire rifles.

Solid projectiles are only really used recreationally for target shooting. For hunting they have less stopping power. They will often go through an animal without killing it instantly leading to a slow death.

The problem with hollow-points is when people are shot with hollow-points, it's devastating.

The NATO and the US military doesn't use hollow-points, except in limited experiments, going back over 100 years.

I realize animals may suffer a slow death, but by the same token it means people don't die quite so fast from gunshot wounds.

My niece worked in the Las Vegas emergency room years ago, where gunshot wounds were common. She really hated hollow point rounds.

Military In war it's better to de-capacitate enemy soldiers than kill them. Seriously wounded people require two other people to carry them, medi-vac and specialised care.

'Hollow-points'

Solid projectiles go through-and-through so one round can kill multiple people in a crowd. In light, low powered calibres a solid projectile may have more chance of going deep and doing serious damage.

A head shot with any projectile is probably fatal in high calibre.

It is very easy and safe to make solid-point projectiles into hollow-point. You just need a drill press. Hollow point is generally unstable at high velocity. OK for a rim-fire rifle (.22) a handgun, or a short range rifle like a .45 rifle. Hopeless on long range centre-fire rifles.

You have to plug the hole with a plug with a tapered tip to a make the projectile stable in 'flight'. This tip may be lead, plastic, copper etc. These are so called 'soft-point' projectiles, but the point may be in fact harder than the rest of the projectile so it's better described as ballistic tipped. On impact the tip separates from the projectile, which is then hollow and can deform.

I converted solid target projectiles (cheap) into ballistic-tipped projectiles using a drill press and everyday plastic casting materials. It was easy, safe, cheap and perfectly legal to do. As I was using the rounds for commercial pest control it was also an economic and humane choice. My home-made ballistic-tipped projectiles were as accurate for me to use as high-end store bought projectiles, but ~20% of the cost.

Mike

Fred99

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#1877652 5-Oct-2017 09:44

Geektastic:

New Zealand only recently decided to pass regulations making being a gang member an automatic disqualification criteria for a FAL...

How do they define "gang" and thus "gang member"?

Someone who's involved in an organised crime syndicate?

Do people in organised crime syndicates have licensed or unlicensed guns?

Is the regulation just another politically expedient action that'll probably achieve nothing useful at all?

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