National leaves Labour with a $20 billion bill

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#1911038 30-Nov-2017 12:11

Perhaps its time for NZ to wake up & stop pretending

Perhaps its time to re-evalute defence spending, for a small island of 4million people
Farming & tourism. NZ is not a rich country. Lets not try & keep up with the Jones on defense hardware

MaxLV

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#1911044 30-Nov-2017 12:15

networkn:

You can make anything look bad if you take a wide enough angle on it. You have chosen to be very selective in your presentation of the "facts" (Choosing to believe there is only one side and one set of "facts". Your language and tone indicate your views are fairly anti-everything National (masters, buddies and the such), hence your intention to use what little information you have to paint them in a poor light. The reality is your facts are only presented in support of your side of the glass. If you applied a little logic instead of emotions, you'd see a different and more reasonable side to this.

Take your tinfoil hat off, and stop with the emotive language and try having a discussion without all the angst, if you want your points to be taken seriously.

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#1911051 30-Nov-2017 12:21

1101:

Perhaps its time for NZ to wake up & stop pretending

Perhaps its time to re-evalute defence spending, for a small island of 4million people
Farming & tourism. NZ is not a rich country. Lets not try & keep up with the Jones on defense hardware

Fairly confident we aren't very close to keeping up with many Joneses in that particular regard!

I do agree and have suggested before that we amalgamate the current forces and create the NZ Coast Guard in a similar vein to the US Coastguard.

shk292

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#1911508 1-Dec-2017 10:18

1101:

Perhaps its time for NZ to wake up & stop pretending

Perhaps its time to re-evalute defence spending, for a small island of 4million people
Farming & tourism. NZ is not a rich country. Lets not try & keep up with the Jones on defense hardware

We spend about 1% of GDP on defence - quite low compared to most developed countries. Arguably we get reasonable "bang for buck" from this low level of expenditure - moves such as deleting the air combat capability ensured other more affordable areas could be funded.

It's important that we take reasonable steps to ensure we can protect our interests and make a fair contribution to international security. I'd say 1% is the minimum to achieve this.

Fred99

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#1911521 1-Dec-2017 10:24

shk292:

1101:

Perhaps its time for NZ to wake up & stop pretending

Perhaps its time to re-evalute defence spending, for a small island of 4million people
Farming & tourism. NZ is not a rich country. Lets not try & keep up with the Jones on defense hardware

We spend about 1% of GDP on defence - quite low compared to most developed countries. Arguably we get reasonable "bang for buck" from this low level of expenditure - moves such as deleting the air combat capability ensured other more affordable areas could be funded.

It's important that we take reasonable steps to ensure we can protect our interests and make a fair contribution to international security. I'd say 1% is the minimum to achieve this.

I propose that if the 1% is the minimum to achieve this, then let's call it the optimum.

Pumpedd

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#1911542 1-Dec-2017 10:43

shk292:

1101:

Perhaps its time for NZ to wake up & stop pretending

Perhaps its time to re-evalute defence spending, for a small island of 4million people
Farming & tourism. NZ is not a rich country. Lets not try & keep up with the Jones on defense hardware

We spend about 1% of GDP on defence - quite low compared to most developed countries. Arguably we get reasonable "bang for buck" from this low level of expenditure - moves such as deleting the air combat capability ensured other more affordable areas could be funded.

It's important that we take reasonable steps to ensure we can protect our interests and make a fair contribution to international security. I'd say 1% is the minimum to achieve this.

Our Defence budget also aids in search and rescue, protection of our large fishing areas, civil defence and of course our commitments to peace keeping.

All this requires working and functional hardware which needs to be replaced from time to time. Get real guys...nothing lasts forever. The money spent on maintaining our old fleets must be horrendous.

This money is really just maintenance and not really expending our annual defence operating spend. On top of the 1% operating also is needed capital for replacement.

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shk292

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#1911548 1-Dec-2017 10:50

Fred99:

I propose that if the 1% is the minimum to achieve this, then let's call it the optimum.

I'd say it's more complex than that - there are so many uncertainties we face as a nation. It's all about the level of risk that is acceptable - both to the nation's interests and to the lives of those who choose to serve their nation. For every cut in expenditure - eg on equipment renewal or training - there is a risk that because of that cut, capability will not be delivered or a failure will occur. Equally, there is a risk that if we don't pull our weight in international security operations - as well as being morally wrong - that will damage relationships with our allies. But getting maximum capability for minimum expense is always a good thing.

MikeB4

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#1911558 1-Dec-2017 11:07

There has ben a lot of bad decisions made on defence in the last few decades. Starting with the Kahu A4 Skyhawk project only to dump them as the project finished. The Pinzgauer project that resulted in hopeless vehicles for the Army (exception the model purchased for the SAS). The LAV purchase, we did not need over 100 of these vehicles and a mixed purchase of wheeled and tracked ( Bradley's) would have been a better choice. The Purchase of Patrol Craft for the Navy that are unsuitable for our waters and cannot be put to sea. Anti aircraft systems that we cannot afford to use. The NH90 purchase has been a very expensive mistake and its short falls and issues were well documented before we signed the contract. These are just a few the list goes on...

The thought of the Defence force wasting billions more really concerns me.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

bmt

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#1912977 4-Dec-2017 21:18

The NH90s were an excellent buy and they are performing great.

I'll point out that the NZDF is not the same as the Ministry of Defence. MoD is responsible for procurement.

Those advocating for cuts in capability really just don't understand the reality of the world, geopolitics, etc etc. Most of it will simply be based on their own beliefs rather than genuine factual evidence to support their claims.

networkn

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#1912979 4-Dec-2017 21:20

bmt:

The NH90s were an excellent buy and they are performing great.

I'll point out that the NZDF is not the same as the Ministry of Defence. MoD is responsible for procurement.

Those advocating for cuts in capability really just don't understand the reality of the world, geopolitics, etc etc. Most of it will simply be based on their own beliefs rather than genuine factual evidence to support their claims.

Are you in a better position to enlighten everyone then?

shk292

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#1913108 5-Dec-2017 09:45

networkn:

Are you in a better position to enlighten everyone then?

The Defence White Paper is a good place to start. Have a read of that and post any questions

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rjt123

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#1913798 6-Dec-2017 11:14

Quote:

1101: "Perhaps its time for NZ to wake up & stop pretending

Perhaps its time to re-evalute defence spending, for a small island of 4million people
Farming & tourism. NZ is not a rich country. Lets not try & keep up with the Jones on defense hardware"

I don't know what planet you live on...? possibly the same as Helen Clark's when she said we live in an "incredibly benign strategic environment"

I agree that a small economy can't afford to spend a lot on defence, but to neglect defence spending and pin our safety on goodwill or neutrality is hardly a realistic strategy. If we want to piggy-back off a stronger defence force (like the USA) then we could remove the nuclear ship ban and let them station some of their pacific fleet in NZ - significant boost to the economy as well - could lease Ohakea airbase to them too...

MikeAqua

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#1919078 13-Dec-2017 14:43

MaxLV:

Where is this '4 laning' plan. As far as I'm aware, National planned to '4 lane' the highway between Auckland and Whangarei, as part of the their 10 Billion 'Roads of National significance'.
It's a good thing that's not going ahead, as it would have only added more huge trucks to the road,

Is the number of trucks controlled by the quality of roads? or by the demand for freight? I would have thought the latter. The inefficiency of rail no-doubt plays a role too.

In any case, if roads are 4 lanes and sensible grades, trucks will less of a problem than they are now.

Mike

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#1919171 13-Dec-2017 16:43

rjt123:

I agree that a small economy can't afford to spend a lot on defence, but to neglect defence spending and pin our safety on goodwill or neutrality is hardly a realistic strategy. If we want to piggy-back off a stronger defence force (like the USA) then we could remove the nuclear ship ban and let them station some of their pacific fleet in NZ - significant boost to the economy as well - could lease Ohakea airbase to them too...

Maybe we could just apply to become a US State. We already eat their crappy food and drink their cola. Why not let them take over our entire economy? We could lease the country to them too...

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

rjt123

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#1919191 13-Dec-2017 17:03

Rikkitic:

rjt123:

I agree that a small economy can't afford to spend a lot on defence, but to neglect defence spending and pin our safety on goodwill or neutrality is hardly a realistic strategy. If we want to piggy-back off a stronger defence force (like the USA) then we could remove the nuclear ship ban and let them station some of their pacific fleet in NZ - significant boost to the economy as well - could lease Ohakea airbase to them too...

Maybe we could just apply to become a US State. We already eat their crappy food and drink their cola. Why not let them take over our entire economy? We could lease the country to them too...

I guess their food quality is an opinion, I personally eat very little US food... that I'm aware of at any rate. Rather that than Chinese tbh (Think melamine scandal). And drinking cola is a lifestyle choice. Hardly relevant anyways.

I don't know what part of "leasing" a small area of land or dock space constitutes a takeover or annexation, we are talking about US not Russia just btw. Subtle difference.

It's well understood that Immigration is a boost to the economy, in that they spend a lot of money, but obviously has it's drawbacks e.g. they take jobs, houses, add stress to healthcare services etc. Having another 10,000+ defense personnel here spending the money but providing their own accomodation, jobs, healthcare etc. would be massive. Ant they could drink NZ brewed coca-cola.

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