Virtue signalling - surest way for left-wing to lose

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Handle9

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#2050845 6-Jul-2018 21:08

Fred99:

IMO the whole trend to apply labels such as "SJW" and behaviour as "virtue signalling" is also a con.

Deal with issues as they are - the media need to be ruthless and accurate - not repeating thus endorsing validity of stupid labels.

A couple of issues related to the US at the moment:

Some moronic folks (rightly) concerned about the appalling actions of border security services under direction of the Trump administration, and are calling for the abolition of ICE, protesting, waving banners. That wouldn't solve any problems, ICE don't carry out the separations, nobody sane would want fully open borders. Under Obama, at times there were more border arrests and detentions than there are now. The issue isn't that people are being intercepted at the border, it's the way they're being treated when they are arrested, and it's a constitutional crisis as people are being treated automatically as criminals when the constitution is very clear that people crossing the border seeking refugee status do have rights, and have not committed a crime merely by seeking refugee status. Nevermind -"abolish ICE" is a great meme.

On another couple of issues, other morons are (rightly) claiming that freedom of speech is valuable, and they're on a mission against some things happening in Europe.

"Free Tommy Robinson" is being argued on the basis that putting this scumbag in prison is breaching his right to speak freely. Balderdash - he stood on the steps of a courthouse and defied a suppression order after being warned not to do what he did - and what the consequences would be for him (he'd be chucked in prison) and what the consequences could be for the court case (the people he sought to expose who were on trial for allegedly committing despicable crimes - could end up going free as his illegal disclosures could be used by the defense as grounds for dismissal as they would prejudice the accused receiving fair trial). He pleaded guilty to the charges and his lawyer expressed Tommy's "deep regret". Nevermind "Free Tommy" is a great meme. The case is closed - Tommy was wrong - but the meme remains.

And memes themselves, some of the alt:right are in an apparent frenzy (no doubt being stirred up by their masters in the Kremlin) because they believe that changes to European copyright law will be used to suppress sharing of memes. They aren't - in fact in response to concerns that those laws in theory could be used to suppress sharing of memes, the EU parliament is amending legislation to ensure that effect can't happen. Nevermind "The EU is trying to ban memes" is a great meme.

The world is going mad. The Dunning Kruger Effect is winning.

What I do feel sad about is the absence of debate. We have gone from being able to debate ideas, to refusing to accept any form of nuance or grey. There is a justifiable contempt for mass media but a lot of it driven by the refusal of public figures to justify their actions.

The days of government ministers (of any persuasion) fronting up to Paul Holmes or John Campbell are long gone. Now we are left with the likes of Hoskings nonsense as no politician fronts the media to be put to the test.

Lias

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#2050976 7-Jul-2018 10:07

dejadeadnz:

Lias:

I've got Indian and Chinese friends (also South African, Filipino, American, British, Scottish, Irish, Australian, Fijian, Israeli, Afghan, Bosnian, Samoan, Dutch, and god only knows who I'm forgetting).

Here comes the ages-old "I am not a bigot when I say bigoted and obnoxious things!" defence. What cultural tests do you want? A test to see if people espouse worldviews you deem acceptable?

Rikkitic was the one who brought up race by specifically mentioning Indian and Chinese dairy owners (which could just about be argued is a racist stereotype). I was just trying to point out that wanting controls on immigration is nothing to do with race. I was trying to make the point that I genuinely do not care what race, colour or creed you are, but if you want to live in New Zealand, I expect you to speak English and understand and integrate into our way of life.

It's not like language and cultural tests as part of the citizenship process are something new.. Australia, America, Canada, the UK, the Netherlands, Germany etc. all have them. Immigration isn't inherently a bad thing, quite the opposite, but it can be a very bad thing when you don't ensure that people that are immigrating are integrating into the country.

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kingdragonfly

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#2050986 7-Jul-2018 10:35

I believe Rikkitic was pointing out an unintended consequence of all immigrants completely conforming.

Desired effects:

New Zealand benefits when all immigrants completely conform to local culture.

Unexpected drawback:

In NZ culture,there are unpleasant or dangerous jobs, and very few people would willingly do these

Examples include dairy cashiers, seasonal picking fruit and vegetables, commercial large-scale fishing, and working in a slaughterhouse.

Perverse result:

If all immigrants completed conformed, very few people would do these important but unpleasant or dangerous jobs. New Zealand locals would suffer.

"Alabama farmer says: If you want to get rid of illegal immigrants, quit eating"

Rikkitic

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#2050999 7-Jul-2018 11:26

Lias:

Rikkitic was the one who brought up race by specifically mentioning Indian and Chinese dairy owners (which could just about be argued is a racist stereotype). I was just trying to point out that wanting controls on immigration is nothing to do with race. I was trying to make the point that I genuinely do not care what race, colour or creed you are, but if you want to live in New Zealand, I expect you to speak English and understand and integrate into our way of life.

It's not like language and cultural tests as part of the citizenship process are something new.. Australia, America, Canada, the UK, the Netherlands, Germany etc. all have them. Immigration isn't inherently a bad thing, quite the opposite, but it can be a very bad thing when you don't ensure that people that are immigrating are integrating into the country.

I remember visiting Auckland as a tourist in 1998. I wandered down Queen street looking for something (don't remember what). I went into several shops and was amazed that the Chinese personnel in them did not speak a word of English! How can you have someone working in a shop waiting on people who doesn't speak any English? Apparently these shops mainly serve the Chinese community, which seems to be fairly insular and self-sustaining here (as it also is in other countries).

I do think it is odd that there are so many people living here who do not see the need to learn English, but to the best of my knowledge, the ones in the Chinese community do not generally rob dairies or commit other acts of violence. Equally it is my impression that our Indian immigrants commit very little violent crime. I mentioned this because of the implication that 'rampant immigration from incompatible and foreign cultures' is a problem. I'm not sure it is. A far bigger problem is the acts of violence committed by New Zealand citizens born here who do speak our languages but attack the businesses that the immigrants work so hard to keep open for the benefit of the rest of us.

A problem with culture and language examinations is that they can easily be abused to discriminate against certain groups of immigrants. I do think new immigrants should be encouraged in every possible way to learn our languages and to understand our cultural norms, but I do not think they should be coerced or have to pass tests, which is undignified and insulting.

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Geektastic

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#2051083 7-Jul-2018 13:29

Rikkitic:

Lias:

Rikkitic was the one who brought up race by specifically mentioning Indian and Chinese dairy owners (which could just about be argued is a racist stereotype). I was just trying to point out that wanting controls on immigration is nothing to do with race. I was trying to make the point that I genuinely do not care what race, colour or creed you are, but if you want to live in New Zealand, I expect you to speak English and understand and integrate into our way of life.

It's not like language and cultural tests as part of the citizenship process are something new.. Australia, America, Canada, the UK, the Netherlands, Germany etc. all have them. Immigration isn't inherently a bad thing, quite the opposite, but it can be a very bad thing when you don't ensure that people that are immigrating are integrating into the country.

I remember visiting Auckland as a tourist in 1998. I wandered down Queen street looking for something (don't remember what). I went into several shops and was amazed that the Chinese personnel in them did not speak a word of English! How can you have someone working in a shop waiting on people who doesn't speak any English? Apparently these shops mainly serve the Chinese community, which seems to be fairly insular and self-sustaining here (as it also is in other countries).

I do think it is odd that there are so many people living here who do not see the need to learn English, but to the best of my knowledge, the ones in the Chinese community do not generally rob dairies or commit other acts of violence. Equally it is my impression that our Indian immigrants commit very little violent crime. I mentioned this because of the implication that 'rampant immigration from incompatible and foreign cultures' is a problem. I'm not sure it is. A far bigger problem is the acts of violence committed by New Zealand citizens born here who do speak our languages but attack the businesses that the immigrants work so hard to keep open for the benefit of the rest of us.

A problem with culture and language examinations is that they can easily be abused to discriminate against certain groups of immigrants. I do think new immigrants should be encouraged in every possible way to learn our languages and to understand our cultural norms, but I do not think they should be coerced or have to pass tests, which is undignified and insulting.

No more undignified or insulting than the medical tests, criminal record checks, education checks etc already required. Indeed, they are already required to provide proof of English ability IIRC, because I was surprised to find that "It is my mother tongue" was not actually a way of proving my ability when I filled in the forms!

JimmyH

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#2052268 9-Jul-2018 20:55

Rikkitic:

Geektastic: Reminds me of when Penn & Teller got heaps of eco crusties to sign a petition calling for a ban on dihydrogen monoxide....!

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

Dangerous stuff, that.

Jacqui Dean and Sue Kedgley have fallen for the same hoax. Link Here

Mighty Ape

Shop now at Mighty Ape (affiliate link).

MikeAqua

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#2057017 16-Jul-2018 12:17

Fred99:

That's what some of my ancestors were saying a couple of hundred years ago. They had a point (many of the immigrants were not interested in assimilating with NZ culture - they wanted to dominate). You don't have a point.

200 years ago people on the whole didn't assimilate with other people. Best case scenario (rare) was tolerant coexistence. More common was invasion and conquest - including between European nations.

Mike

MikeAqua

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#2057019 16-Jul-2018 12:21

Rikkitic:

I do think new immigrants should be encouraged in every possible way to learn our languages and to understand our cultural norms, but I do not think they should be coerced or have to pass tests, which is undignified and insulting.

For an education or work visa I think English language proficiency is a reasonable pre-requisite and there should be an assessment of spoken English, included in that.

People working in retail or hospitality context should definitely have good spoken English. Immensely frustrating (and sometimes dangerous) if they don't.

Mike

kingdragonfly

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#2058084 18-Jul-2018 07:38

Just a strange incident in the US.

Previous to this, the far-right website the Daily Stormer decided to name Papa John’s the "official pizza" of the alt-right. That website is popular with neo-nazis.

http://fortune.com/2018/07/17/papa-johns-founder-john-schnatter-says-he-shouldnt-have-resigned-over-racial-slur/

"Papa John's Founder John Schnatter Says He Shouldn't Have Resigned Over That Racial Slur After All"

...Schnatter’s resignation came after it emerged that he had used the n-word and graphically described lynchings on a call with Papa John’s marketing agency.

The context was reportedly a role-playing session that was precipitated by racist groups’ endorsement of the pizza chain, in the wake of Schnatter’s complaint that the National Football League had not resolved the issue of protests by black players over police brutality—that controversy already saw Schnatter vacate the role of Papa John’s CEO.

Schnatter reportedly said in his letter that he had insisted in the call that he was not racist.

“I then said something on the order of, Colonel Sanders used the word ‘N,’ (I actually used the word), that I would never use that word, and Papa John’s doesn’t use that word,” he wrote.
...

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