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MikeB4
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#2099867 2-Oct-2018 10:26

The Oceans and seas may have different names but if you look at the globe they are one of the same. One of the areas proposed by the last Government was the Tasman national Park region I maybe wrong but I have a suspicion that a lot of tourists may visit there.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeB4

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#2099872 2-Oct-2018 10:38

6FIEND:

networkn:

How does a ban reduce our need for oil and gas? We will simply import it. The Government should have set about looking on positive (after proper consultation) ways to reduce the need in the first place.

The ban simply moves the place the drilling occurs, to someone elses neighbourhood. As long as there is demand, there will be drilling.

I can't disagree with this.

The ban is essentially the same as those old social media campaigns that used to try and convince people not to fill up their cars on a particular day, so that the petrol stations will "feel the pinch" and be forced to reduce their prices.

Even if successfully orchestrated, exactly the same amount of petrol would be consumed and purchased.

The best way to effect change is to modify behaviours and improve/replace ICE technologies.

I agree with this and believe the Government should set a date for the banning of ICE vehicles

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

GV27

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#2099901 2-Oct-2018 11:40

MikeB4:

I agree with this and believe the Government should set a date for the banning of ICE vehicles

This is putting cart before horse, considering there are effectively no electric utes available yet and most commercial vans have pitiful range.

At the moment, the change is happening as fast as the technology allows and at a pace that doesn't really satisfy demand. If you set a date, you run the risk of no one stocking electric anything right up until that point. We also aren't a big enough market to justify our own platforms for vehicles, so we're going to take what we get from the rest of the world anyway. If we change gears too fast then we're so small that they'll just ignore us.

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#2099903 2-Oct-2018 11:49

MikeB4:

I agree with this and believe the Government should set a date for the banning of ICE vehicles

I believe that a ban would be a seriously misguided move.

EV makes a lot of sense for urban commuters, but not so much for many other forms of transportation.

Not to mention the fact that Lithium mining also has a significant environmental impact.

MikeB4

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#2099925 2-Oct-2018 12:20

GV27:

MikeB4:

I agree with this and believe the Government should set a date for the banning of ICE vehicles

This is putting cart before horse, considering there are effectively no electric utes available yet and most commercial vans have pitiful range.

At the moment, the change is happening as fast as the technology allows and at a pace that doesn't really satisfy demand. If you set a date, you run the risk of no one stocking electric anything right up until that point. We also aren't a big enough market to justify our own platforms for vehicles, so we're going to take what we get from the rest of the world anyway. If we change gears too fast then we're so small that they'll just ignore us.

I am not suggesting the date should be this year or next but certaily withing the next decade and a half. There are already alternatives for commercial vehicles, eg Electric Rail but there are already many electric commercial vehicles both light and heavy coming onto the market.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/12/electric-trucks-coming-quick/

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/08/first-new-zealand-made-electric-rubbish-trucks-about-to-hit-palmerston-north.html

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

GV27

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#2099942 2-Oct-2018 12:36

MikeB4:

I am not suggesting the date should be this year or next but certaily withing the next decade and a half. There are already alternatives for commercial vehicles, eg Electric Rail but there are already many electric commercial vehicles both light and heavy coming onto the market.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/12/electric-trucks-coming-quick/

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/08/first-new-zealand-made-electric-rubbish-trucks-about-to-hit-palmerston-north.html

Electric rail as an alternative to a builder's ute? When most people say 'Commercial Vehicles' they're meaning vans, light trucks and utes. They'd be the bulk of commercial vehicles on our roads today. Freight hauling and rubbish disposal are both incredibly specific platforms, whereas electric versions of the above with 200km+ range are still in development.

The next decade and a half will mean we'd be only just seeing a second-gen product entering the used vehicle market. That's an incredibly compressed timeframe. And you're talking about banning ICE - as imports, or just from the roads entirely??

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MikeB4

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#2099945 2-Oct-2018 12:39

GV27:

MikeB4:

I am not suggesting the date should be this year or next but certaily withing the next decade and a half. There are already alternatives for commercial vehicles, eg Electric Rail but there are already many electric commercial vehicles both light and heavy coming onto the market.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/12/electric-trucks-coming-quick/

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/08/first-new-zealand-made-electric-rubbish-trucks-about-to-hit-palmerston-north.html

Electric rail as an alternative to a builder's ute? When most people say 'Commercial Vehicles' they're meaning vans, light trucks and utes. They'd be the bulk of commercial vehicles on our roads today. Freight hauling and rubbish disposal are both incredibly specific platforms, whereas electric versions of the above with 200km+ range are still in development.

The next decade and a half will mean we'd be only just seeing a second-gen product entering the used vehicle market. That's an incredibly compressed timeframe. And you're talking about banning ICE - as imports, or just from the roads entirely??

Because the world has procrastinated so long over this we no longer have the luxury of time.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

6FIEND

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#2099983 2-Oct-2018 13:11

MikeB4:

Because the world has procrastinated so long over this we no longer have the luxury of time.

To be fair, a number of scientists and personalities have been saying that for more than twenty years now.

That's not to say that we shouldn't be looking for improvements across the board in how we (as a species) care for our planet, but I don't think that the "we're out of time! Therefore we must take drastic action!" message is constructive. (quite the contrary in fact - it enables people to point and laugh at the alarmist rhetoric that hasn't eventuated. Eg. Gore in 2008, “The entire North polar ice cap may well be completely gone in 5 years.” (yes, that's the Snopes.com verified quote))

MikeB4

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#2099999 2-Oct-2018 13:27

The longer we wait the more drastic the action needed will be. We have the ability to reduce emmissions now but lack the will to do it. No one wants to be first.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

MikeAqua

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#2100000 2-Oct-2018 13:29

MikeB4:

I am not suggesting the date should be this year or next but certainly within the next decade and a half.

The national fleet is about 3.5m vehicles (https://www.transport.govt.nz/resources/vehicle-fleet-statistics/) so replacement over a ten year period would require 350,000 EVs per year to be purchased and the corresponding number of ICEVs to be decommissioned. Or 230,000 per year over 15 years.

Or if we institute a ban on new registration of ICEVs in 10 or 15 years time ...

We registered about 280,000 new vehicles per year since 2014 (https://www.mia.org.nz/Sales-Data/Vehicle-Sales). Assuming that continues - unlikely as EVs cost more and do less - we would take about 13 years to fully replace the fleet.

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GV27

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#2100047 2-Oct-2018 13:36

MikeAqua:

MikeB4:

I am not suggesting the date should be this year or next but certainly within the next decade and a half.

The national fleet is about 3.5m vehicles (https://www.transport.govt.nz/resources/vehicle-fleet-statistics/) so replacement over a ten year period would require 350,000 EVs per year to be purchased and the corresponding number of ICEVs to be decommissioned. Or 230,000 per year over 15 years.

Or if we institute a ban on new registration of ICEVs in 10 or 15 years time ...

We registered about 280,000 new vehicles per year since 2014 (https://www.mia.org.nz/Sales-Data/Vehicle-Sales). Assuming that continues - unlikely as EVs cost more and do less - we would take about 13 years to fully replace the fleet.

You're almost certainly also talking about replacing the fleet with vehicles and technology that:

- Does not exist yet;

- May not exist in sufficient numbers to meet global demand once it does exist in a commercialised form.

- Will likely mean additional time is needed for those vehicles to become available in NZ.

Just flat out banning ICE vehicles for the feel-good factor of saying you did it before there's even viable alternatives is going to be effective at crippling lower-middle NZ and not much else.

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MikeB4

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#2100055 2-Oct-2018 13:44

GV27:

You're almost certainly also talking about replacing the fleet with vehicles and technology that:

- Does not exist yet;

- May not exist in sufficient numbers to meet global demand once it does exist in a commercialised form.

- Will likely mean additional time is needed for those vehicles to become available in NZ.

Just flat out banning ICE vehicles for the feel-good factor of saying you did it before there's even viable alternatives is going to be effective at crippling lower-middle NZ and not much else.

What do you suggest we do then?

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

networkn

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#2100058 2-Oct-2018 13:50

MikeB4:

What do you suggest we do then?

Take a measured and calm constructive approach with a level of urgency, looking at ways we can *effectively* reduce our reliance on traditional fuel types.

To my mind this would be looking at finding ways to make battery based solar energy have a shorter payback, less up front cost etc. (In our household the cost of solar with battery was about 14K and would have taken 22 years to get pay back).

Making public transport more attractive to your average commuter. Replace ICE with EV when practical.

As someone already mentioned, take a look at the environmental impacts of lithium mining, and disposal of the waste assosciated with it.

Make plans that involve consulting with impacted parties, look at using the Governments legislative abilities to encourage/incentivise those working in traditional exploration to be retasked with development of renewable energy and it's associated areas.

What we don't do is blindly make policy that may seem like a good idea at the time, in a panic over saving the planet where we take an "any cost/risk/impact is acceptable" which seems to be the prevailing attitude of many.

GV27

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#2100060 2-Oct-2018 13:53

MikeB4:

GV27:

You're almost certainly also talking about replacing the fleet with vehicles and technology that:

- Does not exist yet;

- May not exist in sufficient numbers to meet global demand once it does exist in a commercialised form.

- Will likely mean additional time is needed for those vehicles to become available in NZ.

Just flat out banning ICE vehicles for the feel-good factor of saying you did it before there's even viable alternatives is going to be effective at crippling lower-middle NZ and not much else.

What do you suggest we do then?

Let governments in other countries use their dollars to incentivise EVs in markets that can actually drive development, and lower prices when those vehicles can get sold to us on their second-hand market. Look at how we've benefited from the Japanese Govt's EV subsidies on things like Nissan Leafs. There's nothing that says we have to burn a tonne of cash right now for the sake of being seen to do something, and the Government has more pressing spending priorities (housing, poverty, etc).

MikeB4

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#2100066 2-Oct-2018 14:01

I dont see setting a date as a panic move.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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