2024 US Presidential election thread

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#3256315 4-Jul-2024 18:50

gzt:
marmel: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/two-4-warrants-letting-fbi-spy-ex-trump-aide-carter-n1121406

I will try google later. The article is inconclusive:

It was not clear from Boasberg's own court order which two FISA orders were deemed invalid, but it's likely they were the final two renewals. According to the inspector general's report, the FBI had reason by then to doubt the British spy's information, and it had learned that Page had been cooperating with the CIA.

The article more or less states the first two warrants were accurate and valid when applied for. The review found there was no assessment of new information gained since then prior to applying for renewal representing the final two warrants.

I also think you should read that first article again, when you have findings like this against one of the top justice agencies in the US you have a major problem.

"But he also said he found no satisfactory alternative explanation when it came to the lies and omissions that led a court to wrongly authorize spying on Page, who was not charged with a crime."

LIES AND EMISSIONS. In NZ that is the type of thing that would lead to charges.

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#3256317 4-Jul-2024 19:04

marmal: We also saw another issue prior to the last election with the 'Hunter Biden' laptop story being buried by most of the mainstream press

The story was aired on Tucker Carlson's mainstream Fox News show and probably a few other places. Many chose not to publish simply because they could not verify the information directly. I recall some publications were allowed to see various aspects but none had possession of the device to verify everything claimed.

and former government employees including former ranking members of the CIA signing up to 'the letter' which claimed it was likely a Russian misinformation operation. Things are so bizarre that some of those signatories are still claiming that today, despite the US government now presenting that laptop as evidence against Hunter in his recent trial.

The prosecution presented messages obtained from the laptop as evidence in Hunter Biden's trial on the charge of purchasing a firearm while being an active drug user. The prosecution correlated specific messages and times with Apple Corporation related to drug use and firearm purchase. That is all.

Those legal proceedings did not validate any other information claimed to be on the laptop or for example determine if information claimed by Giuliani etc etc was accurate or based on altered contents or an altered copy.

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#3256320 4-Jul-2024 19:12

gzt:
marmal: We also saw another issue prior to the last election with the 'Hunter Biden' laptop story being buried by most of the mainstream press

The story was aired on Tucker Carlson's mainstream Fox News show and probably a few other places. Many chose not to publish simply because they could not verify the information directly. I recall some publications were allowed to see various aspects but none had possession of the device to verify everything claimed.

and former government employees including former ranking members of the CIA signing up to 'the letter' which claimed it was likely a Russian misinformation operation. Things are so bizarre that some of those signatories are still claiming that today, despite the US government now presenting that laptop as evidence against Hunter in his recent trial.

The prosecution presented messages obtained from the laptop as evidence in Hunter Biden's trial on the charge of purchasing a firearm while being an active drug user. The prosecution correlated specific messages and times with Apple Corporation related to drug use and firearm purchase. That is all.

That legal proceedings did not validate any other information claimed to be on the laptop or for example determine if information claimed by Giuliani etc etc is accurate or based on altered contents as some claimed.

The claims prior to the 2020 election peddled by the Democrats were that the laptop was a fake altogether, backed up by the 'letter' agreeing it had all the hallmarks of a Russian misinformation campaign. I don't believe any credible source is still trying to deny it was Hunters laptop, this is only strengthend by the use of the laptop content as you have outlined in the recent proceedings.

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#3256328 4-Jul-2024 19:25

marmel: I also think you should read that first article again, when you have findings like this against one of the top justice agencies in the US you have a major problem.

"But he also said he found no satisfactory alternative explanation when it came to the lies and omissions that led a court to wrongly authorize spying on Page, who was not charged with a crime."

Yes, I'd like to see the original quote and understand exactly what is being referred to. You'll notice it is a summary not a quote. The authority may be summarizing the cumulative effect of submitting essentially the same warrant application several times without reviewing the grounds each time. It looks like that. I agree it is very serious. That is exactly the kind of police procedural issue that can see entire cases thrown out of court because a judge justifiably feels they were lied to by a trusted applicant to obtain an invasive warrant which would not otherwise have been granted.

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#3256331 4-Jul-2024 19:33

gzt:
marmel: I also think you should read that first article again, when you have findings like this against one of the top justice agencies in the US you have a major problem.

"But he also said he found no satisfactory alternative explanation when it came to the lies and omissions that led a court to wrongly authorize spying on Page, who was not charged with a crime."

Yes, I'd like to see the original and understand exactly what is being referred to. You'll notice it is a summary not a quote. The authority may be summarizing the cumulative effect of submitting essentially the same warrant application several times without reviewing the grounds each time. It looks like that. I agree it is very serious. That is exactly the kind of police procedural issue that can see entire cases thrown out of court because a judge justifiably feels they were lied to by a trusted applicant to obtain an invasive warrant which would not otherwise have been granted.

Regardless of who was in the firing line, I just know that in NZ if this had happened and it transpired that the agency that had applied for the production order or warrant had lied or omitted relevant data that may not have been 'helpful' to their application the shit would hit the fan bigtime, and we should all be thankful for that.

In the US, other than the criticisms in various reports, not a single person appears to have been held responsible.

I also ask again, had Clinton won in 2020 would the subsequent investigations we have been discussing ever have happened?

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#3256334 4-Jul-2024 19:36

I've probably dragged this thread off topic a bit so to bring it back to the current election, will we see any major scandals like we saw last time or will it be a case of nah, we tried that last time?

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#3256337 4-Jul-2024 19:43

marmel:The claims prior to the 2020 election peddled by the Democrats were that the laptop was a fake altogether, backed up by the 'letter' agreeing it had all the hallmarks of a Russian misinformation campaign.

My recollection is the claims were made about the information presented by Giuliani and not the laptop itself in particular which seemed to remain an open question. On the other hand it doesn't really matter at that level in the sense the two things were and are very much intertwined.

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Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

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#3256343 4-Jul-2024 19:51

gzt:
marmel:The claims prior to the 2020 election peddled by the Democrats were that the laptop was a fake altogether, backed up by the 'letter' agreeing it had all the hallmarks of a Russian misinformation campaign.

My recollection is the claims were made about the information presented by Giuliani and not the laptop itself in particular which seemed to remain an open question. On the other hand it doesn't really matter at that level in the sense the two things were and are very much intertwined.

My main memory of Giuliani is the time he was on camera with streaks of dark hair dye running down his face and me thinking how the hell did these people end up running the USA. Similar thoughts now when Biden has one of his 'moments'.

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#3256344 4-Jul-2024 19:55

marmel: I also ask again, had Clinton won in 2020 would the subsequent investigations we have been discussing ever have happened?

My instant reaction is no, of course not. On the other hand government agencies don't always do exactly what a President would like them to do or even exactly what a President clearly wants them to do. There is still a good chance a similar review would have occurred. As you point out no person was really held responsible for the warrant issue which is often the case it's up to some other internal review process to report back on how it happened and what will be done to prevent the same issue in future.

Minor note I think you mean 2016 rather than 2020 doesn't really matter which the same applies in either case.

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#3256351 4-Jul-2024 20:09

gzt:
marmel: I also ask again, had Clinton won in 2020 would the subsequent investigations we have been discussing ever have happened?

My instant reaction is no, of course not. On the other hand government agencies don't always do exactly what a President would like them to do or even exactly what a President clearly wants them to do. There is still a good chance a similar review would have occurred. As you point out no person was really held responsible for the warrant issue which is often the case it's up to some other internal review process to report back on how it happened and what will be done to prevent the same issue in future.

Minor note I think you mean 2016 rather than 2020 doesn't really matter which the same applies in either case.

Yeah, 2016.

Back to 2024 I hold very little hope that either candidate will make any change whatsoever to fix anything in the US. I think the problems are at a systemic level across politics and justice amd I don't think there will be any meaningful change in my lifetime.

The US has so much influence, we only need to look at ongoing conflict in the middle east and Europe as evidence of that. How can they fix anything abroad when they have such a broken, divided country at home? When was the last time the US had a truly inspirational candidate for president?

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#3256426 4-Jul-2024 21:40

gzt:
marmal: We also saw another issue prior to the last election with the 'Hunter Biden' laptop story being buried by most of the mainstream press

The story was aired on Tucker Carlson's mainstream Fox News show and probably a few other places. Many chose not to publish simply because they could not verify the information directly.

The story was so crazy that no-one but the right-wing conspiracy nutcase media would fall for it. Even the tabloid NY Post, which originally broke the story, had to add journalist names to it without their knowledge because no-one wanted to be associated with it. I don't want to type up all the crazy here but there's plenty of writeups that go through all the details. It wasn't "buried" any more than "WWII Bomber Found on Moon" would be "buried".

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#3256427 4-Jul-2024 21:45

neb:
gzt:
marmal: We also saw another issue prior to the last election with the 'Hunter Biden' laptop story being buried by most of the mainstream press

The story was aired on Tucker Carlson's mainstream Fox News show and probably a few other places. Many chose not to publish simply because they could not verify the information directly.

The story was so crazy that no-one but the right-wing conspiracy nutcase media would fall for it. Even the tabloid NY Post, which originally broke the story, had to add journalist names to it without their knowledge because no-one wanted to be associated with it. I don't want to type up all the crazy here but there's plenty of writeups that go through all the details. It wasn't "buried" any more than "WWII Bomber Found on Moon" would be "buried".

Are you talking about Giuliani's claim about the data from the laptop? Keeping in mind Hunter Biden has since sued Giuliani for leaking bis private info from that laptop.

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#3256430 4-Jul-2024 21:54

The whole story around the laptop: He walked in off the street to a blind computer repair guy (!!) and left it with him, never to return. The logs on the drives had been repeatedly wiped and so much data altered that they were forensically worthless. There was data on there with dates after the laptops were handed over to the blind repair guy. etc etc, I can't remember all the details, but it's not surprising no reputable news outlet wanted to touch it, and even the NY Post's reporters, or at least some of them, refused to be associated with it.

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#3256432 4-Jul-2024 21:56

neb:
The whole story around the laptop: He walked in off the street to a blind computer repair guy (!!) and left it with him, never to return. The logs on the drives had been repeatedly wiped and so much data altered that they were forensically worthless. There was data on there with dates after the laptops were handed over to the blind repair guy. etc etc, I can't remember all the details, but it's not surprising no reputable news outlet wanted to touch it, and even the NY Post's reporters, or at least some of them, refused to be associated with it.

Yeah, I can see what you are saying even though it turned out it was his laptop. Sometimes life is crazier than fiction I guess.

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#3256434 4-Jul-2024 22:04

marmel: Keeping in mind Hunter Biden has since sued Giuliani for leaking bis private info from that laptop.

That is not the case. Hunter Biden was suing Giuliani for “hacking into, tampering with, manipulating” his personal data. But, you'll be pleased to know Hunter Biden dropped the legal action last month ; ).

Some unlikely story about Gulinani already being bankrupt..

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