That tape is such a good listen lol.

tdgeek:

 

If the SFO has charged 4 people then Ross is complicit. Maybe it wont be proven but he's been charged. he is a National MP. Yes, it might be his sole doing to bag Bridges, but he was also his right hand man. Peters hasn't been charged, nit has anyone else yet, they took legal advice you cannot say that if it wasnt true, but why are we ignoring National who are linked to a Police charge, but we are calling for Peters to be removed?

 

Because Peters has to abide by the cabinet manual. He has to be 'fit' for office. That's not a test that Bridges has to meet. And regardless of whatever Bridges has done, Peters has arguably failed that test and Ardern will not reprimand him, nor will she even ask him about what is going on.

Ross is no longer a National MP. If the circumstances turn out to be that he flipped his lid and conspired to entrap Bridges into a situation where he commits electoral fraud and is blackmailed out of the leadership because JLR fancied his own chances at being leader, then I fail to see how that can be held against Bridges in the same way as an MP being investigated by the SFO for party funding and donations issues who has already been censured by parliamentary committee for his role in a previous donation scandal.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10529658

GV27:

 

tdgeek:

 

If the SFO has charged 4 people then Ross is complicit. Maybe it wont be proven but he's been charged. he is a National MP. Yes, it might be his sole doing to bag Bridges, but he was also his right hand man. Peters hasn't been charged, nit has anyone else yet, they took legal advice you cannot say that if it wasnt true, but why are we ignoring National who are linked to a Police charge, but we are calling for Peters to be removed?

 

 

Because Peters has to abide by the cabinet manual. He has to be 'fit' for office. That's not a test that Bridges has to meet. And regardless of whatever Bridges has done, Peters has arguably failed that test and Ardern will not reprimand him, nor will she even ask him about what is going on.

 

Ross is no longer a National MP. If the circumstances turn out to be that he flipped his lid and conspired to entrap Bridges into a situation where he commits electoral fraud and is blackmailed out of the leadership because JLR fancied his own chances at being leader, then I fail to see how that can be held against Bridges in the same way as an MP being investigated by the SFO for party funding and donations issues who has already been censured by parliamentary committee for his role in a previous donation scandal.

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10529658

 

The keys are, did Bridges know about the donation? He did, as per the tape, and he sidetracked that in the tape. Should he have been aware that the donation was advised to the electorate people? NZFF is under investigation. Same questions for Peters. Right now no one has been charged so its unknown yet if there was fraud. Lets assume they got legal advise as stated, and/or if there was fraud, is Peters complicit? Unknown, so how can he be held to account. he could be if as leader of NZF he ultimately has to own it, but that doesn't apply to Bridges? This debacle occurred while his MP was a National MP 

tdgeek:

 

he could be if as leader of NZF he ultimately has to own it, but that doesn't apply to Bridges? This debacle occurred while his MP was a National MP 

 

This isn't just about donations though. 

Winston is the Deputy PM. He has to behave to a certain standard to be politically fit for that office. Bridges, by virtue of not being a minister, doesn't. He's not subject to the standards in the cabinet manual for cabinet minister.

One could make a very convincing argument that photographing journalists meeting with sources about stories that are throwing light on your dubious donation structure and associated trust does not meet those standards. Per Stuff:

The deputy prime minister has said two reporters were photographed going to a meeting with Gray "to prove that was the sort of behaviour going on".

When the photographs were raised with him by Magic Talk Radio, Peters said "we took the photographs".

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/119508391/winston-peters-on-photos-of-reporters-we-took-the-photographs

The PM could clarify this by discussing it with him. I recall she was quite opposed to Dirty Politics when in opposition. But she is refusing to do so. 

Anyway I am sure Ardern is playing for time with Winston and won't challenge him on this until she knows she has what she needs in place to snap and can make a point of doing it for the right reasons, which she absolutely would be.

Anyway, here's my favoured interpretation of the JLR phone call tape - it doesn't require you to believe anything other than Bridges being as bad at listening to other people as he is at talking to other people, which is extremely believable IMO:

https://twitter.com/PronouncedHare/status/1229996521250181120

So we will put the fraud aside? And its about taking pics?  If thats the case then while we cant hold bridges to account from the crap he showed on that tape, then if he wins the election we can then say that he is not fit for office? As I said earlier, it seems you are heavily minimising Bridges, and maximising Peters. Electoral fraud is I assume a criminal offence, taking pics is dumb

tdgeek:

 

So we will put the fraud aside? And its about taking pics?  If thats the case then while we cant hold bridges to account from the crap he showed on that tape, then if he wins the election we can then say that he is not fit for office? As I said earlier, it seems you are heavily minimising Bridges, and maximising Peters. Electoral fraud is I assume a criminal offence, taking pics is dumb

 

I'm not minimising Bridges - how he didn't get rolled as leader is a mystery for the ages. I will really struggle to vote for National with him in charge. 

I'm not maximising Peters either - I'm saying he has to meet a higher standard by virtue of being DPM and the PM is responsible for making sure her ministers meet those standards. Those are not my opinions - they are set in stone in the cabinet manual which all ministers have to abide by. Even if they are both guilty of the same thing, Peters doing it has difference consequences. 

GV27:

 

tdgeek:

 

So we will put the fraud aside? And its about taking pics?  If thats the case then while we cant hold bridges to account from the crap he showed on that tape, then if he wins the election we can then say that he is not fit for office? As I said earlier, it seems you are heavily minimising Bridges, and maximising Peters. Electoral fraud is I assume a criminal offence, taking pics is dumb

 

 

I'm not minimising Bridges - how he didn't get rolled as leader is a mystery for the ages. I will really struggle to vote for National with him in charge. 

 

I'm not maximising Peters either - I'm saying he has to meet a higher standard by virtue of being DPM and the PM is responsible for making sure her ministers meet those standards. Those are not my opinions - they are set in stone in the cabinet manual which all ministers have to abide by. Even if they are both guilty of the same thing, Peters doing it has difference consequences. 

 

It depends if you see taking photos as a major major major problem. We all know the media target him, I can't see how this is such a massive drama.

I guess this isn't either. Dirty politics, smear campaigns vs a few photos?

Bennett was asked about the parallels between this, and activity outlined in the 2014 book Dirty Politics, by investigative journalist Nicky Hager.

It detailed close links between the Whaleoil blog, political advisor Simon Lusk, and National MPs running smear campaigns against political opponents.

The Whaleoil website closed in 2019 in the wake of its parent company going bust, defamation cases and its controversial founder Cameron Slater suffering a stroke.

The BFD website is registered to Andrea Parkes, who has a Whale Oil email address.

But Bennett distanced National from these players.

tdgeek:

 

It depends if you see taking photos as a major major major problem. We all know the media target him, I can't see how this is such a massive drama.

 

I consider the Deputy PM being involved with photographing journalists meeting with sources and then those photos finding their way to a Dirty Politics apparatus attack blog to discredit those stories to be incredibly bad for press freedom. I would go so far to say it is borderline tyrannical. 

I find what I italicised as tyrannical as well

NZ First

What is everybody's opinion what will happen to them this election? (Not what you want to happen to them)

Bridges has removed them as a potential coalition partner. This is so that they will lose votes to National and keep them out of Government by not reaching the 5% threshhold. Thats quite a good plan, as its medium risk, high reward. It does however, reply on NZF voters voting for NZF, where IMO they vote for Peters. Its often said here when Peters goes its the end of NZF. Peters has charisma to his dedicated voters, he may well win them around, do we want to get things done, or not?

Delicate

I believe that NZF will be out of parliament this year. Winston Peters is a fighter and oddly a survivor he will no doubt fight the election result in the court but at the end of the day it will goodbye Winston.  Akin to this I believe that the National party will be savaged in the election and will see their numbers in the house cut but quite a bit.

If people go out and vote NZF could survive about 20% of registered voters dont vote. The last Colmar Brunton poll showed 17% (app) didnt want to respond to their poll. I would suggest that if Labour get of their backsides and get people out voting they will probably returned and may even form a govt without coalition partners> I still believe coalitions do good for the country

MikeB4:

 

I believe that NZF will be out of parliament this year. Winston Peters is a fighter and oddly a survivor he will no doubt fight the election result in the court but at the end of the day it will goodbye Winston.  Akin to this I believe that the National party will be savaged in the election and will see their numbers in the house cut but quite a bit.

 

Reasons?  IMO if NZF is out, National will get a big boost from that. If NZF voters are ok with labour they will vote NZF to get back in with Labour, if they dont wantt labour they may vote National. I can't understand how NZF failing would happen as well as National being savaged

@tdgeek NZF and National will get savaged in the election and rightly so. They have both raised their middle fingers to the rules of Parliament and to the people Aotearoa. I do not believe the NZF vote will go to National and I sincerely hope it does not.