The NZ Herald Gay Marriage Poll discussion

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#792405 3-Apr-2013 14:33

Klipspringer: And the answer to that one is simply that gay couples are putting themselves and their own selfish desires before the kids.

Since many people make a decision to get married as part of an effort/commitment to provide a stable home for their children - you are completely wrong about that.

Why is it you believe that a stable family life for a gay couple should be any different to that of a heterosexual couple?

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#792407 3-Apr-2013 14:35

Klipspringer:
Beccara:

By your argument divorce should be outlawed and single mothers too. It's just staggering that you apply this argument in such a limited view

Do you believe that a healthy home with a loving mother and a father is the absolute best enviroment to bring up a child?

Do you always use loaded and baited questions to narrow people into a corner with your narrow minded and bigoted views?

You have latched onto one small part of the discussion and are using it to spread FUD, The way that your side is debating would make you think that the Births/Deaths/Marriages office would start handing out free babies with every gay marriage who would in turn be trained to use rainbow color rifles on poor unsuspecting straight folk

This is about equal rights under law for all people. If you want to debate making it illegal for children to be in ANYTHING but a Male/Female home (Which is what your argument add's upto here) then start another thread and lets end this massive derail about the right to be considered for adoption approval

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#792413 3-Apr-2013 14:45

gzt:
Klipspringer: And the answer to that one is simply that gay couples are putting themselves and their own selfish desires before the kids.

Since many people make a decision to get married as part of an effort/commitment to provide a stable home for their children - you are completely wrong about that.

Why is it you believe that a stable family life for a gay couple should be any different to that of a heterosexual couple?

Have a read of this:
It will answer your question.

Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children’s View

Simply put. A gay couple raising children will stand out as being different.

Think back to your childhood. Is it nice growing up "different"? Children have no shame and I think the article above sums it up pretty well.

That’s my first point.

My second point is that in a healthy loving home with a Mom and a Dad there are certain parenting tasks that are best left to the Mom, and certain other tasks best left to Dad. Again I am not saying that doing these tasks is not possible for either parent to do.

I could bring up my daughters if need be on my own. It would be hard, but it would not be what’s best for my kids.

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#792419 3-Apr-2013 14:49

Beccara:

Do you always use loaded and baited questions to narrow people into a corner with your narrow minded and bigoted views?

Please stop the name calling.

If you can't answer the question then maybe its best not to comment. This thread has been going pretty well.

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#792424 3-Apr-2013 14:52

Klipspringer: And the answer to that one is simply that gay couples are putting themselves and their own selfish desires before the kids.

Wait a minute. If the gay couples can't have kids anyway, what's the problem of them putting their own selfish desires before the kids they can't have?

I can't see a problem here. Let them get married, they won't be taking anything away from straight parents with kids that also want to get married.

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#792439 3-Apr-2013 15:05

freitasm:
Klipspringer: And the answer to that one is simply that gay couples are putting themselves and their own selfish desires before the kids.

Wait a minute. If the gay couples can't have kids anyway, what's the problem of them putting their own selfish desires before the kids they can't have?

I can't see a problem here. Let them get married, they won't be taking anything away from straight parents with kids that also want to get married.

My comment was about gay couples raising kids.

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#792442 3-Apr-2013 15:06

Klipspringer:
gzt:
Klipspringer: And the answer to that one is simply that gay couples are putting themselves and their own selfish desires before the kids.

Since many people make a decision to get married as part of an effort/commitment to provide a stable home for their children - you are completely wrong about that.

Why is it you believe that a stable family life for a gay couple should be any different to that of a heterosexual couple?

Have a read of this: It will answer your question. Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children’s View

It did not answer my question. The article makes very clear in the opening two paragraphs that it is not describing a stable family life. My question remains the same.

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#792443 3-Apr-2013 15:10

gzt:
Klipspringer:
gzt:
Klipspringer: And the answer to that one is simply that gay couples are putting themselves and their own selfish desires before the kids.

Since many people make a decision to get married as part of an effort/commitment to provide a stable home for their children - you are completely wrong about that.

Why is it you believe that a stable family life for a gay couple should be any different to that of a heterosexual couple?

Have a read of this: It will answer your question. Growing Up With Two Moms: The Untold Children’s View

It did not answer my question. The article makes very clear in the opening two paragraphs that it is not describing a stable family life. My question remains the same.

Same answer then:

Klipspringer:
Simply put. A gay couple raising children will stand out as being different.

Think back to your childhood. Is it nice growing up "different"? Children have no shame and I think the article above sums it up pretty well.

That’s my first point.

My second point is that in a healthy loving home with a Mom and a Dad there are certain parenting tasks that are best left to the Mom, and certain other tasks best left to Dad. Again I am not saying that doing these tasks is not possible for either parent to do.

I could bring up my daughters if need be on my own. It would be hard, but it would not be what’s best for my kids.

If thats not clear enough then ask yourself whats best for a child. Asking myself that question always diverts me back to opposing SSM.

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#792478 3-Apr-2013 15:48

Some interesting points in the latter pages of this discussion. A couple of things which caught my eye:
I managed to watch most of the Organisation of Marriage(?) video linked to earlier, but it was difficult to watch all the way through -- it seemed to stamp an answer on all the questions which were the opposite of what I would have answered, which gave it an 'OppositeLand' vibe. It would have made more sense to me if the answers were left blank -- letting people make up their own minds.

The most recent point -- that children shouldn't be put in the position of being different -- seems weird to me. When I was a kid, I had a stammer, which really made me stand out, and I dealt with a lot of taunting before I learnt to deal with it better. In an ideal world, I wouldn't have had a stammer, but it would be crazy to wish for an ideal world.

I have no clue how a relationship, whether marriage or not, should work, I have two failed marriages, and although in the past I've believed that I had some of the answers, I know that I don't have any at the moment. But I do have three blindingly amazing kids, all grown up now. Would it have been better if their mum and I hadn't separated when they were little? Not at all, it would have been asking for trouble to keep the relationship going 'for the sake of the kids'. It might work for some, but not for everyone. Would it have been better if we were two different people, who would make a better go of it? Silly question, I know, but this is how I see the question 'Do you believe that a healthy home with a loving mother and a father is the absolute best environment to bring up a child?'

I don't believe that making your child as average and ordinary as possible so that they fit in has any real benefit in the real world. Being different is inevitable. Good, bad, or indifferent, but inevitable.

That's why I think that the question 'Do you believe that a healthy home with a loving mother and a father is the absolute best environment to bring up a child?' needs a lot of clarification. Are these parents being forced to be loving, and have a healthy home? Would it be acceptable here to be loving to the children, but not to each other? So my answer would be 'for some, maybe, but not for everyone, and certainly not for me.'

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#792481 3-Apr-2013 15:54

Klipspringer:
Beccara:

Do you always use loaded and baited questions to narrow people into a corner with your narrow minded and bigoted views?

Please stop the name calling.

If you can't answer the question then maybe its best not to comment. This thread has been going pretty well.

It's not name calling, I don't answer questioned that are simply designed to give you the answer you want. You deny other's rights you enjoy yourself simply because you call it wrong. You are diverting away from the real issue with your "Wont someone think of the kids" argument which has been done to death and quite trashed.

If a gay couple is raising a child then that child has either come from a) donor sperm or b) adoption.

Donor's I don't believe are currently stopped so there is nothing stopping this section of your horror view from occurring today, A gay women could have a child today any number of ways which aren't illegal. All the law does at the moment is rip the child out of that family should it's mother die and place it into foster care

Adoption is process, a long and hard one at that where the best interest of the child is core to placement so if a child is adopted into a gay family it will be whats best for the child

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#792488 3-Apr-2013 16:00

Klipspringer:
1080p:
2) Best raises children.

- There is no evidence of this. Feel free to provide some.

The best way to answer this one is by asking ourselves what is the absolute best for a child?

And that answer is very simple.

Every kid deserves a Mom and a Dad...

One can argue all day and go around in circles about some families etc and bad upbringings of some kids in failed marriages with a Mom and a Dad. But simply put, nothing is better than bringing up a child in a healthy loving home with a Mom and a Dad.

So if nothing is better.. Then why settle on something than is worse than the absolute best for a child?

And the answer to that one is simply that gay couples are putting themselves and their own selfish desires before the kids.

I'm going to assume that you're right for a moment. Assume that a family with a single male and female raising a child is the optimal environment for a child.

How, precisely, does this amendment affect those raising children in heterosexual relationships?

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1080p

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#792489 3-Apr-2013 16:01

Klipspringer:
Beccara:

By your argument divorce should be outlawed and single mothers too. It's just staggering that you apply this argument in such a limited view

Do you believe that a healthy home with a loving mother and a father is the absolute best environment to bring up a child?

How will this amendment affect those bringing up children in that environment?

1080p

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#792490 3-Apr-2013 16:05

Klipspringer:
freitasm:
Klipspringer: And the answer to that one is simply that gay couples are putting themselves and their own selfish desires before the kids.

Wait a minute. If the gay couples can't have kids anyway, what's the problem of them putting their own selfish desires before the kids they can't have?

I can't see a problem here. Let them get married, they won't be taking anything away from straight parents with kids that also want to get married.

My comment was about gay couples raising kids.

They already raise kids. It is happening as we type! What will saying they are married change about this?

Klipspringer

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#792493 3-Apr-2013 16:14

1080p:
Klipspringer:
Beccara:

By your argument divorce should be outlawed and single mothers too. It's just staggering that you apply this argument in such a limited view

Do you believe that a healthy home with a loving mother and a father is the absolute best environment to bring up a child?

How will this amendment affect those bringing up children in that environment?

Answer the question.

So far only one person has done so.

Klipspringer

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#792498 3-Apr-2013 16:22

toprob:
That's why I think that the question 'Do you believe that a healthy home with a loving mother and a father is the absolute best environment to bring up a child?' needs a lot of clarification. Are these parents being forced to be loving, and have a healthy home? Would it be acceptable here to be loving to the children, but not to each other? So my answer would be 'for some, maybe, but not for everyone, and certainly not for me.'

I agree. It can do with some clarification.

Lets make it a “perfect relationship” then. A great loving marriage between a husband and wife. No social issues, a loving relationship. A family raising kids.

Now take that exact same “perfect” relationship and substitute the female from above with a male. Or Vice-versa

Which family structure is best for the upbringing of the child?

It’s a no brainer.

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